Dead Klingons

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Poll: Auto Troll Scoring System - Ascore is...

Perfect - Military Strength is the ultimate measure of an empire
0
No votes
OK - a little limited but not bad
2
20%
Not so great - not balanced for all races
4
40%
Other / No Opinion
4
40%
Total votes: 10

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Gilgamesh
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Dead Klingons

Post#1 » Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:10 pm

I hope this doesn’t come off as whiney….. It’s not intended to be that way. Klingons don’t whine.

I was looking through the hall of fame and noticed a lot of dead Klingons. Those that were not dead were certainly coughing up blood. From the sampling I did (admittedly not exhaustive, I could have missed something spectacular) only a few highly skilled or very lucky Klingons were able to thrive.

This makes me think a couple of things….

1 – the next game I play I’d like to try an alternate shiplist.

2 – with the Ascore system of measuring military strength, is the system stacked agains some races? Extreme example – I hold 90 planets and the Empire holds 20 – I build a Vickie and he builds a Gorbie. He jumps ahead of me in score, correct? That seems like a very one dimensional version of the game to me and misses a lot of the intricacies of Planets. On this system I’m further ahead picking a heavy carrier race like the Robots if I want to get closer to the top.

Just my thoughts. The most balanced scoring system I’ve ever seen was NAVGAP’s Uscore which measured other factors such as how well your planets and bases were developed, tonnage (which rewarded aggression, Ascore could actually discourage you from seeking a fight) and the tech levels applied to your ships (LDSF with transwarps is worth more than an LSDF with Star Drives).

Comments?

Jim
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B A N E
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Post#2 » Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:47 pm

Couple quick things:

#1: From other posts by Havok, C-M will be switching over to
ITAScore in the future due to Ascore deficiencies.
From the description:

ITAScore is a completely customizable scoring program. You can define all kind of formulas on any VGAPlanets' parameter. This allows you to tailor your scoring system to any scenario you are going to use in a game.

ITAScore creates an itascore.txt file and sends a message containing the score and the settings to all the players each turn.

ITAScore cna create an ascore.dat file fully compatible with Autotroll and Ascoregif, for online visualization.


#2: Ascore
The following Military items are the items that are scored towards each race's AutoScore:

WARSHIPS: Any ship with a Beam, Torp Tube or Fighter Bay is considered a Warship by AutoScore (yes, even a Q-Tanker). Each Warship's AutoScore value is totaled based on the entire cost of the ship. This includes the cost of the Hull, Engines, Beams, Torp Tubes and Armament (Torps and Fighters). Totals do not include cargo on board.

The remaining three categories are totaled and then halved due to the fact that they are not mobile and therefore pose less of a threat to a mobile fleet:

BASE DEFENSES: The cost of the base's Defense Posts and Fighters are totaled for addition to the race's AutoScore.

PLANETARY DEFENSES: The cost of the planet's Defense Posts are totaled for addition to the race's AutoScore.

MINEFIELDS: The total number of mine units contained in all minefields, owned by that race, are totaled, then divided by 100 (this assumes Mark 8's) and fractions are truncated. The cost of this many Mark 8 torpedoes is then totaled for addition to the race's AutoScore (in terms of per mine unit, this would yield a value of .69/2 = .345 points per mine unit).
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Cherek
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Post#3 » Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:51 pm

Answer to 1 - The right ship list may help.

Answer to 2 - Yes, In one game, Shardin had like three times the ships, starbases and planets than I had. But I was the winner because my Golems and Instrumentilities out weighed his Rubies, Emeralds, Diamonds and Crystal Thunders.
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Gilgamesh
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Post#4 » Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:51 pm

I just checked a site for info on ITA - it sounds good.

Is there an ETA on it?

Jim
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hennef
Posts: 2250

Post#5 » Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:55 pm

autotroll is limited, but you can get a good idea of the enemies actions and transactions with other players - especially in combination with timscore.

a combined system would be better still.
have fun!

hennef

JoeSnoffy
Posts: 8

Post#6 » Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:34 pm

Hi,

The best score system can be found at Robo, IMHO.

The total score for a game is 4000.
1000 is for minerals, factories, and natives
1000 is for starbases.
1000 is for warfleets
1000 is for territory value of planets.

It is never enough to have just warfleet or starbases, ect.

The score is not perfect, as some races like Fascist, Crystalline still have a hard time keeping up with the other races, but maybe that's just because Fascist and Crystalline are weaker and not because the score doesn't show actual strenght.

Just in case anybody wishes to get some ideas about how to setup the score at this host.

Best wishes,

JoeSnoffy

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Gilgamesh
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Post#7 » Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:46 pm

JoeSnoffy wrote:Hi,


The score is not perfect, as some races like Fascist, Crystalline still have a hard time keeping up with the other races, but maybe that's just because Fascist and Crystalline are weaker and not because the score doesn't show actual strenght.

Just in case anybody wishes to get some ideas about how to setup the score at this host.

Best wishes,

JoeSnoffy
That's why tonnage is important in the scoring mix. To kill off a heavy carrier I might have to sacrifice a couple of poppers and one or maybe two Vickies. I won the battle but my score is going to get hit worse than my enemy. At least I will get something on the tonnage.
Last edited by Gilgamesh on Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Gilgamesh
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Post#8 » Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:55 pm

I hope this formats OK.

Just to illustrate the point, here's the scores from my last NAVGAP game (sadly, maybe THE last NAVGAP game). You can see my fleet had taken a pretty bad pounding, but because I played aggressively I have the highest tonnage in the game and that along with my colonizing kept me competetive.


.........Race.......Total.............................Tim
#......Name.....Score..VGAscore...Tons...Score..Pls..SB..CS..FR
------------------------------------------------------------------------
11 Colonial......16446......8234....4233....3979...75...55...58..28
06 Cyborg.......11773......5155....3090....3528...78...47...62..17
04 Fascist ........9797......2757....4538....2502...95...31...32..13
05 Privateer.....9268.......5221.....447....3600...67....7...88..10
10 Rebel..........7565.......2440....4306.....819...14....9...41...8
02 Lizard...........7161......2313....3706....1142...32..13...40...4
03 Bird Man.......5297......3209.....376.....1712...55..20...47...4
09 Robotic.........2778......2206........0.......572...23...5....31...5
07 Crystalline......406........266........0.......140.....6...1...10....0
01 Fed................337........105.....156........76.....2....1....1....1
08 Empire...........118..........0.......118.........0.....0....0....0....0
---------------------------------------------------------------
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Samuelt86
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Post#9 » Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:06 am

My own view is the best scoring system is blind scoring. Not knowing the strenght of your neighbor adds a bit of spice to the game.

As far as scoring systems go, I happen to like autoscore but it is subject to abuse. The free-fighter races can load up fighters on ships and look a lot stronger than they are as can a Torpedo Race store topedoes at a base (far more than they will ever use). Such manipulation will get you a high score. That's part of the reason I like games to play out until a victor becomes obvious. If the game is allowed to play out, a victor will emerge regardless of the scoring system. The scoring system does not necessarily determine if the victor is obvious.

Carrier races clearly have an advantage. But then again, there is an advantage to being able to build cheap fighters. Autoscore merely reflects that.

The problem with ITA that I have noticed is that it can often place importance on unimportant items as far as the strength and size of your race goes. Carrier races do not need to develop torpedo technology on all bases. The only reason to throw money there is for the score. I like to build bases when playing a cloaker race just to tow the big ships for the kill. The base is important when it has 200 defense posts and 60 fighters near the border. And then you don't get any tonnage points, but you killed the biocide.

There is no need to build many mines if there are few minerals in the ground.

Those are a few of the obvious examples. I don't want to go into too much detail as I don't like giving out strategy. Some of the items measured by ITA are worthless with certain strategies I like to play when playing certain races.

I have mixed emotions about tonnage. The Pirates and Crystal are clearly not designed as tonnage races. They are at a disadvantage when it comes to tonnage but can be an awesome race. You get rewarded from tonnage with pbps and directed builds from them.

The idea behind scoring is to give you a good idea who is winning and will win the game. And it gives you a better feel for how the game is going. It is also used to determine if you can easily attack your weak neighbor or should you gang up on the big guy. I prefer blind scoring.

No scoring system is perfect. As long as the game is allowed to play out, it doesn't really matter anyway - does it.

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Cherek
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Post#10 » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:22 am

Samuelt86 wrote:As long as the game is allowed to play out, it doesn't really matter anyway - does it.
True statement.
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Cherek

Ogie
Posts: 41

Post#11 » Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:10 pm

I think ascore was made to supplement TimScore not stand alone. It really is a poor scoring system if used as a stand alone. But combined with TimScore its decent. It covers up the flaws in TimScore. I think Ascore doesn't take into account the 4X minelaying for the Roots when it calculates scores for minefields. If I'm right that gives the Robots a very easy way to inflate their score.

I have to agree with Samuelt86 on the best way to declare a victor - by vote of the players. Having the players getting a number of votes equal to their score and requiring 70% of the votes to be voted for the game to end is the fairest system I've seen yet. Helps keep games from dragging on that are already decided. I don't think I'd ever play in a game that ended on Turn X with the highest AScore player being declared winner.


Ogie

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Gilgamesh
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Post#12 » Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:21 pm

I like games that end on a specific turn. That way I know I'm not going to get messed up going on vacation, etc if it does drag out. Usually I join a game in the fall and I'm pretty sure it's going to end late-spring. It works for me anyway - not sure how it is for you or other folks.

I agree on voting to end early if it looks like a runaway.
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Ogie
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Post#13 » Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:52 pm

Well I don't mind games ending on Turn X if the scoring system is a sound one, just not AScore by itself. Some kind of blend of TimScore + AScore or a well constructed ITA Score would work for me. But Player Voting is by far the preferable way.


Ogie

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Gilgamesh
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Post#14 » Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:01 pm

I agree completely on the score system thing - as you can guess by now I'm really not an AScore fan. I'm really looking forward to seeing how ][avok implements ITAScore - the defaults he chooses etc. I also can't wait to get my hands on a custom shiplist Klingon fleet like (for example) a Plist 3.0 lite.
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Cherek
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Post#15 » Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:04 pm

Gilgamesh wrote:I agree on voting to end early if it looks like a runaway.
I agree on voting when the game is a runaway, but how to determine a winner when a game ends on a certain turn and there are several players (not allied) close to being even? The ITAScore to me is more of a fair scoring system.

On a side note, why have the graph to show the score history? There are only two scores that count for anything, the score at the present turn and the end of game score. In place of the graph, how about showing # of warships, freighters, planets, starbases for each race.
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