Wing Commander II (non default configs)

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B A N E
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Wing Commander II (non default configs)

Post#1 » Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:51 pm

Patrol: off

cmrd save defense: 100 (50 default)
This requires a colony of 250,000 (2500 clans) instead of 5000 (50 clans).
To stop the cmrd, a significant colony.

ramscoop efficiency: 10 (20 default)

Cloaked ATM: Yes/No.
I'm of two minds about this.
The birds get it no matter the setting, so I think the rest of the lesser cloakers should get it.

If no: See: Alternative: Torpedo costs in supplies:

rob-ships FAx immune: yes

Torpedo costs in supplies:
Fascist: 20
EE: 20
Everyone else: 0 (disabled)

Alternative: Torpedo costs in supplies:
Fed: 25
Liz: 25
Fasc: 10
Priv: 15
Crys: 15
EE: 10
Rest: 0 (disabled)

cruise missile web mines: yes

Addons:
SB+ removed
Blank Score? (flashcube it?) show score on the 10's?
Noallies/limited ally? (is there such thing as one ally?)
Wrap?
Same Map/different?

Hconfig: Mostly default.

Host settings:
HW: 3M, $5k, Rich.
Universe: Normal or Rare
Meteors L&S (off if normal) on if Rare.

Discuss?
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Cherek
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Post#2 » Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:22 pm

On the alternative torpedo cost in supplies, why include the Feds, Lizards and Privateer?

The Feds gets twice the taxation rate than all of the other players by default. Once their economy gets going, they don’t have a money problem

The Lizards can over tax their planets and have a low tech ship over the planet HISSING the planet.

As the Privateer goes, they have Lady Royals to produce the MC they don't get from rob.

I really didn’t like the first map, but it isn’t a show stopper for me (just don’t stick the Privateer next to me next time).

My 2¢ worth.
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B A N E
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Post#3 » Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:10 pm

The birds get Cloaked ATM due to SuperSpy(cloak)+ATMs working
regardless of the C:ATM setting.

The alternative ATC is a compensation for the huge advantage the
birds would have with exclusive cloaked ATM.

Lizard has a fair CV and I wouldn't object to removing ATC from Liz.

It is also a counter to the combat advantages of the fighter races.
IIRC, FAx ignores shields whereas torps via TAx do not.

Note that if Cloaked ATM=Yes,
Only fascist and EE have ATC=20 supplies.

I can go either way regarding Fed & Priv.
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Post#4 » Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:29 pm

B A N E wrote:Note that if Cloaked ATM=Yes,
Only fascist and EE have ATC=20 supplies.
OOPS, hit the wrong button.
I was wondering about this. Why would it matter whether Cloaked ATM is YES or NO? The Birds will have the Cloaked ATM no matter what the the setting is. Why not use the Alternate setting, to quote you "The alternative ATC is a compensation for the huge advantage the birds would have with exclusive cloaked ATM." The only race the Cloaked ATM really benefits is the Birds since the have the only cloaking ship with enough torpedoes tubes to do any real damage.

Do you want to keep CM range at 150 and fighter range at 120?
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Post#5 » Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:48 pm

What's my logic on that?

If Cloaked ATM = No:
Exclusive, the birds won't have to deal with cloaked ATM against them.
That's 3 cloaker races and any traded cloakers.

Thus the birds would be able to bombard both ships and bases with
impunity while all others have to show themselves open to strikes.

I'm game either way.

I need to go check my other posts...
I think I mentioned something about leaving cloaked Atm=no
and instead compensating by making the birds miserable marksmen.
The logic there?
Cloaking botches their targeting.

I think I like that idea better and go with
Fasc & EE = ATC 20 rest 0.

120 Ftr & 150 Torp ranges?
With patrol off, I see no problem.

Your thoughts?
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Post#6 » Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:25 pm

Yep...Retraction/Correction.

Cloaked ATM:NO
The more I think about it, the less I like C:ATM=Yes.
With the current removal of Patrol, cloakers will be problematic enough.

Change the birdman accuracy to say ~75%.
This gives them the big immune hammer that isn't guaranteed.
Taking away the cheap torps I think is penalty enough.

EE and Fascist at ATC 20 the rest 0 (disabled).

Thots?
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Post#7 » Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:59 pm

B A N E wrote:Yep...Retraction/Correction.

Cloaked ATM:NO
The more I think about it, the less I like C:ATM=Yes.
With the current removal of Patrol, cloakers will be problematic enough.

Change the birdman accuracy to say ~75%.
This gives them the big immune hammer that isn't guaranteed.
Taking away the cheap torps I think is penalty enough.
Sounds better
B A N E wrote:EE and Fascist at ATC 20 the rest 0 (disabled).
Thots?
I still think that the Tholians needs to be able to build torpedoes using supplies since they don't have any cloakers, money making ships, overtax their planets or collect extra taxes, but at the same time, I understand the concern about all the WEBs that could be laid. Again it isn't a show stopper for me.
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B A N E
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Post#8 » Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:10 pm

Part of my thots are that turning CM webs is a huge boon for crystals.
ATC would be icing on a cake.

Think about it. :twisted:
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Post#9 » Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:27 am

Ok, looking over what's been put out so far I am in agrrement with most, that being:

Patrol: off
cmrd save defense: 100 (50 default)
ramscoop efficiency: 10 (20 default)
Cloaked ATM: Yes Birds only, but reduce their accuracy (good idea) (*)
rob-ships FAx immune: yes

Torpedo costs in supplies:
Fascist: 20
EE: 20
Everyone else: 0 (disabled) gotta pay.
cruise missile web mines: yes (**)


(*) The reason I said Birds only is based upon the disccusions going on.

If Cloaked ATM = No:
Exclusive, the birds won't have to deal with cloaked ATM against them.
That's 3 cloaker races and any traded cloakers.

Thus the birds would be able to bombard both ships and bases with
impunity while all others have to show themselves open to strikes.


With that in mind why would we give it to all the lesser cloaked races? It would end up being a turkey shoot for the cloaking races throwing tons of torps into the non-cloakers who have no defense or counter punch for it. All they would have is a vector with no way to respond...My thoughts to that is NO for all the cloaking races. Birds only since it cannot be turned off but reduce their accuracy.

(**) I'm a little 'iffy' on letting the Xtals use supplies to build torps IF you are going to give them the ability to deploy Webfields via CMs. Granted unless the Xtal used a bunch of ships all firing at the same point the web field would not be very large. a DF would fire 6 torps...not large but it doesnt take much to drop a small field in front of an incoming fleet to completely ruin their day...

DF
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B A N E
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Post#10 » Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:38 am

DF,

I think we're on the same page.

I cannot justify giving Crystal cheap torps and CM webs.
That would just be ugly for the non-crystal.

I am wanting to run CM webs to see how problematic it is.
I suspect it will be very bad news for crystal enemies.
The good news is that CM webs at long range are not very productive.
But it doesn't take many webunits to get a hit.

So, test it and if imbalancing in practice, turn it off.
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Desert-Fox
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Post#11 » Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:58 am

B A N E wrote:I cannot justify giving Crystal cheap torps and CM webs.
That would just be ugly for the non-crystal.

I am wanting to run CM webs to see how problematic it is.
I suspect it will be very bad news for crystal enemies.
The good news is that CM webs at long range are not very productive.
But it doesn't take many webunits to get a hit.

So, test it and if imbalancing in practice, turn it off.
I would like to see it used at least in a test game and I believe that webs are what the xtals survive with. The CMs would be a 'deterent' to mad rushes into their space. If we give them that ability and the free torps they get now at each base that would more than offset building torps with supplies.

Let me ask a question...how about the shiplist? Does anyone find it out of balance with FHost? Is it fair and equal or do we need some discussion to determine if we need to alter the ship list in anyway?

We can discuus that in more depth after figuring out the switches for the game.

DF
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Cherek
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Post#12 » Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:17 am

I could argue the point about ATC for the Tholians because the get two free torpedoes at there SB (if they have the material on hand to build two torpedoes at the SB). In W-C, there was turns that I didn't get my free torpedoes because I was missing the minerals to build them. Thank goodness for two massive meteor hits, the first one was on my homeworld :cry: and the second was on my MC making planet. :cry: So I have to park a DF at a SB for 45 turns to get it to fill up the DF. Like I said earlier, it isn't really a show stopper for me.
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Desert-Fox
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Post#13 » Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:03 am

Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote:I could argue the point about ATC for the Tholians because the get two free torpedoes at there SB (if they have the material on hand to build two torpedoes at the SB). In W-C, there was turns that I didn't get my free torpedoes because I was missing the minerals to build them. Thank goodness for two massive meteor hits, the first one was on my homeworld :cry: and the second was on my MC making planet. :cry: So I have to park a DF at a SB for 45 turns to get it to fill up the DF. Like I said earlier, it isn't really a show stopper for me.
Damn, I thought for some reason you got them no matter what. I could see letting them have ATC in that case but maybe at a slightly higher cost than the EE and Fascists. Can't make it too easy for a guy who makes his living with torps.... [-X

DF
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B A N E
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Post#14 » Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:04 am

Crystals at 25?
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Desert-Fox
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Post#15 » Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:11 am

B A N E wrote:Crystals at 25?
25 is good...that is still MUCH cheaper than the nomal cost. We need to monitor it though to make sure it doesn't make them too powerful, we will be 'tweaking' this thing for awhile, but once we get it all things even and working, I think FHost will be a great 'change of pace' game.

DF
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