Wing Commander II (non default configs)

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B A N E
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Post#91 » Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:00 pm

DF...
You summarized my thoughts with one exception.

Darksense is the huge equalizer.
EE has access to the greatest intel in the game.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Rimstalker
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Post#92 » Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:36 pm

Evil Empire is the race that is probably my second LEAST favorite.

Dark sense being the big equalizer: Any probe you jump to enemy territory (even into warpwells) will (or at least should) be destroyed before it can darksense after turn 15 at the latest.

Heck, if Web Tomahawks are active, they can even be drained before they have a chance to jump away.

For me, the only thing that actually helps empire in any way in fhost (patrol to combat cloakers) will be switched off.

And that is really bad for a race that is considered the weakest in a standard game together with the fascists.

DF: When it comes to money, 20 mcs per fighter is still 500 for a single Gorbie to AFC for one turn. In Wing Commander I simply could not afford it. At the time I left the game I had 18 or so Gorbies and about 4 of those were in a fighting state. I had shitloads of minerals, but no money at all.

Leaving hiss as it is is imho quite insane for fhost games with the low price for mados.
Wirklich reich ist, wer mehr | Truly rich is, who holds
Träume in seiner Seele hat, | more dreams in his soul
als die Realität zerstören kann.| than reality can destroy.

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Shardin5
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Post#93 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:01 pm

Wow, what a huge thread to read. Just a few comments on the game setup.

1. I agree with the Birds NOT getting torps for supplies, but I disagree on lowering accuracy, as even with Mk8's I missed with lots of torps at close range, also Birds(everybody) has to be at least 1lyr away from the Traget to shoot CM's. If the Bird has to BUY torps he wont have alot of MK8's and accuracy falls, with lower tech levels.

2. The Bird Rewind carrier cloaks while doing all the Carrier Missions, just want everybody to know that.

3. I am glad we are talking about a NEW map the last one made attacking impossible, took 4lyrs to get to Zap, moving fleets that far for an invasion through open space with MF's all over popping up was ROUGH.

4. I like the idea a higher rate for supplies for the Tholians, and Cruise Missle Webs. Only way to really slow down the big tank 10 beam invading ships.

5. What about fueless ships being able to still do missions, or the fact that fuelless ships can be attacked with CM's or Fighters. Any ideas about that issue?

6. As for Races, since I had the Birds last time, I will pass on them on, they are a TON OF FUN though. I will shoot for the Borg, CofM, or Empire.

I have had major withdrawls without my laptop and all this traveling but I am the end of the whirlwind tour. So Lets get this game going.
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The US Marines don't have that problem.
President Ronald Reagan

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Desert-Fox
Posts: 322

Post#94 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:13 pm

Glad to have you back....Wondered what happened to you.

DF
Suck it up, Cupcake!

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Shardin5
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Post#95 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:31 pm

Reading Rimmy's posts, and I think what he is trying to say is the Empire and I agree with, the Empire is a sitting duck in this game, as he is in most games with or without Fhost. Now if we add Web CM's which I am in agreement with, in FHOST the EE's 2 best weapons are neutrualized, the SSD is made worthless for the EE, and all others in Fhost, NO way for it to even get close to a planet without taking damage, Pirate or other cloakers wont even be able to use it. Probes will work well against all but the Tholians, and NOT a bad thing for the Tholians. EE needs some help. Not sure how to get them a torps ship that will be useful, not one for CM's but one for laying MF's with. Gorbies are great ships for FHOST. A Gorbie lead battle group, can walk through most Fighter Missions, its all in how you build them. I think a easy fix for the EE is to allow them to build the D7 Coldpain instead of the Super Star Frigate. A ship that cloaks, not a huge cargo hold, nice range, would balance out the EE alot.
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The US Marines don't have that problem.
President Ronald Reagan

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B A N E
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Post#96 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:15 pm

Oh, I don't disagree that the default EE has problems.
However, IMO, we should avoid shiplist discussions until we've expended
our options via FHConfig & HConfig. Changing the shiplist is a can of
worms.

The FHconfigs available to the EE are: (Defaults)

Fighter rating (105)
CM accuracy (100)
Free Torps at Bases (0)
AFC (15$+5s)
ATC (0) (WC2=20)
Sunbuster (no)
CoreTorp (no)
DeathStar Beam weapon (400)
Fighter minesweep (5)

I see no reason for improving Fighter rating, CM Accuracy,
Free torps, AFC, Sunbuster, Coretorp or minesweep.
DeathStar if as RS states is 0 range is pointless.

By changing the ATC to 20, they get 40% cost torps which allows an
economic offset to assist in their warchest elsewhere. A credit not
spent on torps can be spent elsewhere.

The Hconfigs available to the EE are: (Defaults)
Free Fighters (5)
Mining Rate (100)
Tax Rate (100)
Dark Sense Range (200)

I can justify changing Free Fighters to 10.

Within Fhost games, I can see upgrading DS to account for fighters.
Fighter range is 120.
Consider adding 60 LY to the DS range?
That increases the DS coverage by 68%.
It is 1/2 the fighter range...probes are still not immune.
It is between 3 and 4 turns in movement.

Thots?
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Desert-Fox
Posts: 322

Post#97 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:35 pm

B A N E wrote:DeathStar if as RS states is 0 range is pointless.
What is the deal with the DS? I'm not sure everyone understands what the 'Deathbeam; is or does.

It is not a weapon for knocking out fleets either from a distance or at the same location. As I explained to RS:(This is per MR)
Deathbeam is like a sniper rifle...one shot, one kill. It was never meant to be a beam fired across light years to obiterate targets with no fear of reprisals. You must be at the same location as the target. Most times you won't be able to perform that function if the enemy is a warship, but you could to a freighter etc.

What you can do is obliterate planets thereby denying him infastructure especially in the hands of the Fascists or the Rebels who are unfazed by NUK and ATT commands.
Do not fail to take advantage of the weapon. It is a useful tool.

DF
Suck it up, Cupcake!

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Havok
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Post#98 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:40 pm

Rimstalker wrote:Evil Empire is the race that is probably my second LEAST favorite.

Dark sense being the big equalizer: Any probe you jump to enemy territory (even into warpwells) will (or at least should) be destroyed before it can darksense after turn 15 at the latest.

Heck, if Web Tomahawks are active, they can even be drained before they have a chance to jump away.


It's a probe. They are an acceptible loss.
Rimstalker wrote:For me, the only thing that actually helps empire in any way in fhost (patrol to combat cloakers) will be switched off.

And that is really bad for a race that is considered the weakest in a standard game together with the fascists.


Rolling my eye's yet again... :roll:
Rimstalker wrote:DF: When it comes to money, 20 mcs per fighter is still 500 for a single Gorbie to AFC for one turn. In Wing Commander I simply could not afford it. At the time I left the game I had 18 or so Gorbies and about 4 of those were in a fighting state. I had shitloads of minerals, but no money at all.

Leaving hiss as it is is imho quite insane for fhost games with the low price for mados.
3 words. "Build more starbase's."
Regards,
][avok

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Shardin5
Posts: 3808

Post#99 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 5:28 pm

Now increasing DS range, is a unique idea. That would be a quick fix for the Probes with the Fighter missions and Web CM's in FHOST. I don't like the fact that you have to overwhelm the little buggers, caused 70 damage to the 1st one I saw, but it still hyped away as FHOST missions, don't kill of the Last crew members. It would be nice of the Deathstar Beam had a range on it(has anybody confirmed what the range is?), but it is still useful in both defence as well as attack mode. SSD's is still lost, it just doesn't have a use, but I know alot of EE players that don't build them as they are to vulerable anyway, so maybe its a moot point.
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The US Marines don't have that problem.
President Ronald Reagan

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B A N E
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Post#100 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:32 pm

DF,
Personally, I don't see a need to increase the range of DarkSense(DS).

As for the Deathray.
At most, it should have been 1 LY.

I've thought about the deathray and I agree that it shouldn't be a
long range cannon. The only folks that can really employ it with the
intent of firing the cannon are Rebels & Fascists.
EE cannot on their own.

So, the EE wants to try to use it?
They move into orbit of a planet without a PE/KILL mission.
So, target planet owner sets to ATT/NUK and lets them take it.
Is the EE then going to blast it?

If the target planet is a base, the owner cannot afford not to use ATT/NUK.

Both cases, the Deathray doesn't get fired.

OF course, there is an argument for letting the EE blast the planets.
Colonials or any other long legged race might do that! :twisted:

The ONE major advantage and it is a big one that I see with the death
ray is that it forces players to use PE/KILL which concedes the left side to
the Gorbie. THAT IS HUGE.

Please don't read me being sympathetic to the EE's (Rimstalker's) case.
I generally don't agree.

But, to compromise, I suggested:
A: Double the free fighters
B: Add 60 LY to Darksense
In addition to the low cost torps (20 supps) that we've already agreed on.

This increases significantly the EE economy and modestly increases their
intel.

][avok,
I generally agree, the PL21 is expendable.
Build more bases is a catch22 for the EE.
If they build the base to get the fighters, that's a gorbie hull they did not
build. But, it is an extra batch of fighters per turn. Give/Take.

Enemy#1,
I disagree on the SSD. It isn't useless, it is in fact augmented by the
Deathray. Now there are two ships that enemies cannot allow into
orbit of a planet. If they abandon the planet and the EE orbits, the EE
owns the planet or blasts it. If they stay and fight, they give up the
Left side. It makes for some interesting twists.

Thoughts?
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Desert-Fox
Posts: 322

Post#101 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:58 pm

B A N E wrote:DF,
Personally, I don't see a need to increase the range of DarkSense(DS).

As for the Deathray.
At most, it should have been 1 LY.

I've thought about the deathray and I agree that it shouldn't be a
long range cannon. The only folks that can really employ it with the
intent of firing the cannon are Rebels & Fascists.
EE cannot on their own.

So, the EE wants to try to use it?
They move into orbit of a planet without a PE/KILL mission.
So, target planet owner sets to ATT/NUK and lets them take it.
Is the EE then going to blast it?

If the target planet is a base, the owner cannot afford not to use ATT/NUK.

Both cases, the Deathray doesn't get fired.

OF course, there is an argument for letting the EE blast the planets.
Colonials or any other long legged race might do that! :twisted:

The ONE major advantage and it is a big one that I see with the death
ray is that it forces players to use PE/KILL which concedes the left side to
the Gorbie. THAT IS HUGE.

Please don't read me being sympathetic to the EE's (Rimstalker's) case.
I generally don't agree.

But, to compromise, I suggested:
A: Double the free fighters
B: Add 60 LY to Darksense
In addition to the low cost torps (20 supps) that we've already agreed on.

This increases significantly the EE economy and modestly increases their
intel.

][avok,
I generally agree, the PL21 is expendable.
Build more bases is a catch22 for the EE.
If they build the base to get the fighters, that's a gorbie hull they did not
build. But, it is an extra batch of fighters per turn. Give/Take.

Enemy#1,
I disagree on the SSD. It isn't useless, it is in fact augmented by the
Deathray. Now there are two ships that enemies cannot allow into
orbit of a planet. If they abandon the planet and the EE orbits, the EE
owns the planet or blasts it. If they stay and fight, they give up the
Left side. It makes for some interesting twists.

Thoughts?
It's been awhile since I setup FHost but don't the FHost commands happen before everything else? If that is the case, the planet setting itself to NUK/ATT on the attack turn would have no effect ...could be wrong.

DF
Suck it up, Cupcake!

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#102 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:13 pm

Yes, the fhost commands come into play at Auxhost1.

So, for ATT/NUK to be useful, they must be in place for
the turn prior to the arrival of the Gorbie.

So, Turn X, Gorbie 84 LY from planet.
Planet owner on Turn X must decide ATT/NUK.
Same thing with any orbiting (or will orbit) ships with
regards to PE/Kill.

If it is ATT/NUK, EE can gamble on Fcodes to match and safely
pass through minefields.

Turn X+1, EE fleet arrives.
If no combat due to no PE/Kill/ATT/NUK, then EE has choice of
SSD based Imperial Assault or Blast it.

Considering that the bulk of the planetary encounters, the EE will
be targeting starbases, the defender must use NUK because he
cannot afford ATT due to the SSD being immune to ATT/NUK and
if ATT, the Gorbie could arrive fuel-less.

So, if driving toward a base, the base will be set to NUK.
Thus free rides through any minefield centered on that world.

Yup, pretty nifty advantage for EE.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Shardin5
Posts: 3808

Post#103 » Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:10 am

SSD has problems with FHOST, as it can be targeted before arrival with attacks, a damaged SSD can't do Imperial Clan drops. Even if you take out the FPx command, FAx and TAx commands are in place and you can focus it on the SSD, only way to protect the SSD from FA or TA attacks is with a Gorbie,(Ray should be less than 5lyrs) so you send in a Gorbie with SSD, planet is set to NUK or ATT, all the other ships run, planet fights the Gorbie, and the SSD never gets to drop its clans, and EE doesn't get to capture a forward SB intact. Now if somebody like the Pirates(or other Cloaker) gets a SSD, and try the fueless ship trick, no go as FHOST commands allow you to attack FUELESS ships, so once again the SSD gets damaged and can not do the Imperial Assault. So augmenting the SSD with Gorbie coverage doesn't do you much good, as the Planet will just fight the Gorbie, as it will be set to NUK, NUK allows you to attack ships without FUEL, the fear of a SSD is really limited as all you have to do is cause 1 damage to it, and its a useless for the Imperial Assualt, and with TA and FA commands, putting a hurt on a SSD from a distance is easy to do. NUK FC is the perfect defence against the Gorbie with SSD, with or without Fuel the Gorbie is going to fight, so a person can make sure that the SSD never captures Foward SB's.
Last edited by Shardin5 on Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The US Marines don't have that problem.
President Ronald Reagan

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Shardin5
Posts: 3808

Post#104 » Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:18 am

B A N E wrote:Yes, the fhost commands come into play at Auxhost1.


So, if driving toward a base, the base will be set to NUK.
Thus free rides through any minefield centered on that world.

Yup, pretty nifty advantage for EE.
I want you to play against me, I will set all my forward planets and SB's to NUK, and watch go BOOM as smack into my minefields. Most people control MF codes better than that, and may let you slip through one time, but you wont make it the next turn, MF FC's control is right up thier with making sure the Pirate, or any Race race doesn't ffx you with a useless ship. Plus remember FHOST attack commands allow you to attack Fueless ships.
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The US Marines don't have that problem.
President Ronald Reagan

User avatar
B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#105 » Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:56 am

Enemy#1,

Please reread the specific sentence:
"any minefield centered on that target world"[/b]
I am quite aware of larger fields centered on other planets.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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