Now that is odd....

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Donovan
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Now that is odd....

Post#1 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:47 am

Okay, I would like to hear how people think about this, because I don't want to jump to the wrong conclusions.

Let's say there's this game, we'll call it "The Kit". This game has certain rules. One of the rules is that you can only have only one ally. The exact meaning of this rule has been debated many times. It might mean that you can have one ally and you have to fight all others, or it might be a bit more open for interpretation - you may only have one formal ally because that is all that is technically enforced, but everything else goes. The general understanding of this rule is that, grey areas or not, it is there to prevent multi-race alliances.

Now let's say in this hypothetical game, the following things are happening.

- The Federation has several ships inside the the Fascist homecluster, not bothered by Facist minefields
- The Federation is moving more ships to the Fascist homecluster, but so far no combat between them
- There are at least 300 lightyears of open space to travel between the Federation and Fascist homecluster
- The Federation is about to sweep some Robotic minefields that are covering the Fascist homecluster
- The Federation is providing the Crystals with resources for webmines
- The Crystals are protecting Federation bases with webmines
- The Crystals are also laying Federation ID webmines
- The Crystals are probably still formally allied to the Rebels
- The Borg and Birdmen are presumably allied
- The Borg, Bird and Fed all build doomsday launchers in the same turns: five launchers in two turns
- The Empire seems to be moving in and out of Fed and Crystal webmines without problems
- There is hardly any combat in the cluster, except against Computer-controlled Privateers and Lizards
- The Borg (and probably cloaked Birdmen) show up on the frontlines, having conveniently moved past Empire minefields and Fed and Crystal webmines.


Now I wouldn't quite know what to make of this. I would not want to cry "multi-alliance" without cause, and I certainly wouldn't want to accuse people of breaking the rules or cheating :roll: .

So I wonder what people on this forum would think when they would see such things happening. Would you conclude these folks are working together a wee bit too much for a one-ally game, or could such things all just be coincidence?

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FLETCH
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Post#2 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:04 am

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it must be a....

Let me check who is in that one and make a mental note.
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albatross
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Re: Now that is odd....

Post#3 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:32 am

Donovan wrote:.. or could such things all just be coincidence?
Haha.. seems in the Pit the laws of probability are definitely not the same as in our universe.

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Six_Of_One
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Post#4 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:12 am

FLETCH wrote:If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it must be a....
.
ffs Fletch, don't start a story and not finish it :roll: what ya got early onset oldtimerz disease or something??

pondering the answer will keep me awake all night :evil:
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B A N E
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Post#5 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:33 am

Sounds like you and Rimstalker have your work cut out for you.

I know that the CM game rules are being developed and that
post publishing, future games will be filtered by that set of rules.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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JonnyDoH
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Post#6 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:37 pm

Donovan wrote: - The Borg, Bird and Fed all build doomsday launchers in the same turns: five launchers in two turns

1. I was the first to start building an Antimatter Missile Launcher (beyond the ones you two have). I can only presume that once someone had begun building their first launcher, everyone else thought it might be safe to build theirs (the first target is the most vulnerable...).
Donovan wrote: - The Borg (and probably cloaked Birdmen) show up on the frontlines, having conveniently moved past Empire minefields and Fed and Crystal webmines.
2. The Borg had ample time to set up shop in the middle of the Pit for quite a while now-- many planets beyond the reach of the other races.

3. I've had ample time to build fireclouds within the Pit.

4. Chunnel.

5. Edit: To put your mind at ease, I can say honestly and openly say that there is a planet hopping path between my starbase worlds and my cubes that are not covered by Webs, Fed, Empire and Crystal minefields. Even so, Chunnel. Chunnel chunnel chunnel. Jebus.

As for the rest of your points, I cannot say other than we have been over this before, in another thread. You yourself set up a Non Aggression Pact with the Empire (up to a number of turns), so I don't see what the problem is.
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Donovan
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Post#7 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:13 pm

JonnyDoH wrote:
1. I was the first to start building an Antimatter Missile Launcher (beyond the ones you two have). I can only presume that once someone had begun building their first launcher, everyone else thought it might be safe to build theirs (the first target is the most vulnerable...).
(-a0502)<<<ANTIMATTER>>>
FROM: Planet ID#405

Our spies have noticed race 1 building
an Antimatter DoomsDay Missile Launcher!

Estimated completion time: 6 months.

(-a0502)<<<ANTIMATTER>>>
FROM: Planet ID#222

Our spies have noticed race 6 building an
Antimatter DoomsDay Missile Launcher!

Estimated completion time: 6 months.
So you're mistaking or lying. You're probably gonna go with mistaking, and you're going to assure me this was just a coincidence. :roll:

By the way, the first target is not the most vulnerable. The first nine or ten are.
JonnyDoH wrote: 2. The Borg had ample time to set up shop in the middle of the Pit for quite a while now-- many planets beyond the reach of the other races.

3. I've had ample time to build fireclouds within the Pit.

4. Chunnel.

5. Edit: To put your mind at ease, I can say honestly and openly say that there is a planet hopping path between my starbase worlds and my cubes that are not covered by Webs, Fed, Empire and Crystal minefields. Even so, Chunnel. Chunnel chunnel chunnel. Jebus.


I just find it amazing that in 74 turns, in a one-ally game, six or seven races manage to all get into the Pit yet stay out of eachother's way completely. Except for computer-controlled races, who seem to be the only ones doing any combat. Their homeclusters get invaded. Some races even move to the other end of the cluster to combat far-away enemies, somehow without any combat with other races during their travels through the pit.

Your point five illustrates this perfectly. Instead of doing something about the webs and minefields that are closing in on you, you actually argue that there 'is a planet hopping path' left from your bases to where you are attacking. That is supposed to put my mind at ease how?

And if a planet-hopping pah were the case, I would not have seen your ships coming - you are in deep space. Clearly there is no planet hopping path to where you want to go. There are plenty of planets to hop to from the planet you last departed from, but you made other choices.

In fact, you can attack the planets you are heading for via planet-hopping, but those routes are blocked by webs. Still, no reason to take care of those first, just move along and attack an enemy that isn't even within your reach.

So at least have the decency to stop BS-ing and just admit you're buddies with way too many races please.
JonnyDoH wrote: As for the rest of your points, I cannot say other than we have been over this before, in another thread. You yourself set up a Non Aggression Pact with the Empire (up to a number of turns), so I don't see what the problem is.
I've had a temporary NAP / border agreement, with the border being between two homeclusters with the Empire, yes. Ofcourse, we only had a border to discuss to begin with, because I had kicked the Rebels out of their homecluster. Also, I never used this NAP to fly past or through Empire space to attack someone else. And finally, at this very moment I control ten out of the 16 planets in the Empire's homecluster, including his former homeworld. So I don't quite see the similarities between that temporary border agreement and the things I see happening in this game.

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FLETCH
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Post#8 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:49 pm

QUACK...
FLETCH


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JonnyDoH
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Post#9 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:52 pm

Coincidence then. I don't know how else to explain it. All I know is I began building mine and only knew there were a bunch of other AML's already done.

I'll admit, I haven't paid much attention to the messages of the past four turns-- I was in Vegas for a bachelor party last week and weekend.
Donovan wrote: I just find it amazing that in 74 turns, in a one-ally game, six or seven races manage to all get into the Pit yet stay out of eachother's way completely. Except for computer-controlled races, who seem to be the only ones doing any combat. Their homeclusters get invaded. Some races even move to the other end of the cluster to combat far-away enemies, somehow without any combat with other races during their travels through the pit.
Actually, a number of planets exchanged hands.

I find that funny coming from you-- You took planet Pacifica (ID 411) from me relatively early on-- had you gone further north, you would have seen for yourself my fireclouds, cubes and additional starbases. I can only assume you got distracted by other targets.

I could argue that you reached a deal with the Feds and went to attack the Fascists, why else did you not go ahead and invade my space?

For turns 25-55 turns or so, my ships were MIRED in webs. I was invading the Crystal cluster. Half my force was divided, waiting for you to arrive at my doorstep, the other half in the Crystal cluster. Eventually, the proliferation of Antimatter Missile Launchers caused people to pause, and a deal was reached-- I chunneled out and began concentrating my forces.

I should also note that, just because I come across enemy planets, it doesn't mean I'm going to invade them. Take for example planet Orion (ID 70)-- You have exactly one clan on that world and I could take it easily-- but if I had taken it the turn I discovered it, it would have alerted you to my presence. I passed over it in favor of hopping to planets that could hide my fleet. Does that mean I have an alliance with you? Of course not.
Donovan wrote: Your point five illustrates this perfectly. Instead of doing something about the webs and minefields that are closing in on you, you actually argue that there 'is a planet hopping path' left from your bases to where you are attacking. That is supposed to put my mind at ease how?
The webs were laid after where my fleet is now. I'll deal with it after I deal with the more pressing matter of an Antimatter missile being launched from Equuleus. Right now, the webs aren't in my way to my primary objective. It's the lesser of two evils at the moment.

I would have continued to planet hop to my objectives, but the message stating that an animatter missile was in the process of launching forced my hand. I still have other ships planet hopping, so you're only seeing part of the picture.
Donovan wrote: So at least have the decency to stop BS-ing and just admit you're buddies with way too many races please.
"Buddies" and Non Aggression Pacts are not necessarily synonymous, as you set fit to make an example of with the Empire.

Of all the talk of the Fascist whining and the like, you're doing an awful lot now. Again, we've been over this in other threads-- I believe I have cleared my points with Havok directly. If he were to message me saying that I am in violation of the rules, I will absolutely drop and concede the game to you.
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BC_Guy
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Post#10 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:38 pm

What ? At first, I thought you were talking about some other game called 'The Kit' ?? Then you say you are talking about 'The Pit' !! how confusing.. :lol:
- The Empire seems to be moving in and out of Fed and Crystal webmines without problems
you just aint payin attention !!! I currently have NO ships inside crystal webs. I have lost a couple of MBRs to Fed mines.. and several of my ships (including a Gorbie heading to join the party) have had to turn back to take on supplies after hitting Fed mines !
You need to have your head of intel whacked ! :twisted:
The Borg (and probably cloaked Birdmen) show up on the frontlines, having conveniently moved past Empire minefields
...again... WHAT?!?! seriously - you need to throw your head of intel out the airlock... what minefields !?! I had a couple of small ones, but those are now gone, once your welcome wagon made up my mind who the bigger threat was... rest assured - ALL my resources are focused now.. I have a NAP or 2, that is true ... but I *know* you and your pet have no issues with that ! :D
and the borg said it best... CHUNNEL !!

I certainly don't have any idea where your intel comes from regarding the Liz or Privs doing *any* fighting - The Liz haven't done squat except provide me with SBs for the last 30 turns ?

.. you guys Quack me up ... :wink:

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Hawkeye
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Re: Now that is odd....

Post#11 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:30 pm

Donovan,

I know exactly what you mean - I'm in another 1-ally game and from observing the combat, or in some cases the lack of it, the ship movements and laying of minefields, it's difficult not to start drawing conclusions of a multiplayer alliance. However until I see some hard evidence, I can only make presumptions about the state of the cluster.

As for your scenario, lets put your observations to the test from an impartial and unbiased viewpoint:
Donovan wrote: - The Federation has several ships inside the the Fascist homecluster, not bothered by Facist minefields
- The Federation is moving more ships to the Fascist homecluster, but so far no combat between them
- There are at least 300 lightyears of open space to travel between the Federation and Fascist homecluster
- The Federation is about to sweep some Robotic minefields that are covering the Fascist homecluster
Suspect, but not water-tight. Lack of combat does not imply an alliance or even a NAP for that matter. In my game I'm fighting the Lizards, but its all been planet-taking. Lack of ship explosions, the observation of my shps in lizard territory, and a common enemy may make a casual observer think we had some form of alliance. The only thing that can be gleamed from above is that it would appear that the Feds are fighting the Robots.

Donovan wrote: - The Federation is providing the Crystals with resources for webmines
- The Crystals are protecting Federation bases with webmines
- The Crystals are also laying Federation ID webmines
- The Crystals are probably still formally allied to the Rebels
This would indicate there is is an alliance between the Feds and Xtals, or at the very least, there was one at some point. Your last quote above is a presumption, and therefore can't be used. Considering the state of the Rebels and Crystals in this game, it would come as no surprise to me if the Feds decided to cancel their alliance and strike up a new alliance with a stronger player.

Donovan wrote: - The Borg and Birdmen are presumably allied
Another presumption - can't be used

Donovan wrote: - The Borg, Bird and Fed all build doomsday launchers in the same turns: five launchers in two turns
Only goes to prove that all three had the means to build the launchers at the same time, nothing more. Heck you or your ally might also have started building a launcher in the same turn for all we know.

Donovan wrote: - The Empire seems to be moving in and out of Fed and Crystal webmines without problems
Can be achieved by knowing the friendly code of the minefield. Would this constitute an alliance or merely a NAP?

Donovan wrote: - There is hardly any combat in the cluster, except against Computer-controlled Privateers and Lizards
Only proves that the game may be a little dull. Remember that its only destroyed ships and your own combats that get reported. Taking of planets and stealing of ships won't show up unless they're your own...

Donovan wrote: - The Borg (and probably cloaked Birdmen) show up on the frontlines, having conveniently moved past Empire minefields and Fed and Crystal webmines.
Okay firstup there's been no evidence given that the Borg and Birds have any sort of alliance, so therefore we can only make presumptions, which of course are in no way incriminating. Therefore there could be some form of borg-empire alliance, but hey, that's cool because borg are allowed to have one ally, right? Also keeping in mind that the borg have chunnel, its not hard to get around all those minefields. Finally, does giving out of a minefield friendly code constitute an alliance or a NAP?

CONCLUSION

From the above evidence we can conclude that there would appear that there is either a current alliance between the crystals and feds, or at least there was one at some point. We can conclude that the feds are fighting the robots. We can also conclude that, while not proven, it is highly likely at least one NAP between the players aforementioned. We can also conclude that, again while not proven, it is highly likely that there may have been sharing of minefield friendly codes.

Bottom line: Can minefield friendly codes be shared under a NAP, or does this act constitute an alliance?

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Rimstalker
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Post#12 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:27 pm

Jonny, you think you are really going to get anywhere with just 8 bios? I'm really hoping that you are going to chunnel in more here.
Wirklich reich ist, wer mehr | Truly rich is, who holds
Träume in seiner Seele hat, | more dreams in his soul
als die Realität zerstören kann.| than reality can destroy.

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JonnyDoH
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Post#13 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:54 pm

Rimstalker wrote:Jonny, you think you are really going to get anywhere with just 8 bios? I'm really hoping that you are going to chunnel in more here.
Again, I never said I was the advanced player you are (and often, I counterclaim that as much as possible). I can only promise that I will try my best in game to "bring it". If it turns out to be a lose lose scenario to me, at least we got to see some fireworks between the big ships. It's about time isn't it?

In any case, *salute* *swords drawn* and *to the Victor goes the spoils*. Best of luck and let's see what we have, eh?
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Donovan
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Post#14 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:11 am

JonnyDoH wrote:Eventually, the proliferation of Antimatter Missile Launchers caused people to pause, and a deal was reached-- I chunneled out and began concentrating my forces.
And there we have it.

JohnnyDoH will from this day forth be known as Huey.

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JonnyDoH
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Post#15 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:47 am

Donovan wrote:
JonnyDoH wrote:Eventually, the proliferation of Antimatter Missile Launchers caused people to pause, and a deal was reached-- I chunneled out and began concentrating my forces.
And there we have it.

JohnnyDoH will from this day forth be known as Huey.
At least I take the time to make sure I spell your name right. Jeez, no respect...

1. Huey? I don't recognize the reference.

2. The "deal" was a non aggression pact or two. Go figure-- everyone already knew that.
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