New Ally game addon

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B A N E
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Post#1 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:37 pm

From my POV,

A No-Ally upgrade should strip all fcodes used to cooperate.
However, for either No-Ally or One-Ally, it should NOT go looking
for minefield fcode matching as that would strip a Bird of one of
his abilities.

More later, headed out the door.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Donovan
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Post#2 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:53 pm

albatross wrote: Possible restrictions (known from other threads) amongst non-allies:
- ship trades
- other than own minelaying
- (put in here your suggestion)
btf
btt
btm

hiss mission over planets not belonging to the player or his one ally.

terraform over planets not belonging to the player or his one ally perhaps? Not sure on this one. Could hurt the Crystals, but then again how often do they really heat up enemy planets without capturing them or being NUKed?

lfm doesn't work over planets that do not belong to the player himself anyway, apart from official allies.

bdm shouldn't be restricted, that would prevent beaming dow money along with colonists to not-yet-owned planets.

I agree with you and Bane, matching fcodes for minefield travel shouldn't be blocked.

There was one thread where there was talk of disabling cloning. I think that shouldn't be blocked, because you can also clone captured ships.

You cannot block cargo beamups from planets either, it would hurt the Birds.

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albatross
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Post#3 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:18 pm

Thanks Donovan, that's already big stuff!

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Captain Blood
Posts: 294

Post#4 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:39 pm

Making an add on to prevent use of friendly codes except the ffx FFx do not seem the way to go. That would only encourage those who believe that if it is possiable it is legal.

With the current program it is possiable to fight together even if two empires officially is at war if the players know what they are doing, the better players the more easily it can be done. Naturally there are some limitations like overlapping minefields etc.

With a new program those players can still fight together because the use of the friendly codes can easily be circumvented. It just takes a little more planning. Like giving a planet to the fighter making carrier race + emtying the Rush of fuel and towing it to a nearby starbase to surrender etc.

So basicly such an add on will prevent beginners to engage in non legal cooperation, but those veterans who don´t intend to follow the rules will have no problems cheating. Thinking of it, that will no longer be cheating since it is possiable. :(
Regards,

Captain Blood

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JonnyDoH
Posts: 433

Post#5 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:51 pm

Donovan wrote: terraform over planets not belonging to the player or his one ally perhaps? Not sure on this one. Could hurt the Crystals, but then again how often do they really heat up enemy planets without capturing them or being NUKed?
Jupiter addon:
# The Crystals:
Ravius Beam.

The Onyx class starships have been outfitted with the Ravius Beam, designed
to increase a planet's temperature at a distance. As long as the Onyx has
fuel, FC of "RAV" and has a waypoint set on one of the planets, the Onyx
would increase that world's temperature by (1) degree per turn, burning
(1) unit of fuel. NOTE: if the host sets the temperature increase rate
to more than 1, the fuel use will increase accordingly.
The range of this ability is the ship's engine tech squared times 2.
I would agree that any of the racial special powers not be allowed to share in one ally/no ally games-- i.e. Refit/Hiss/etc. Any special ship abilities (such as chunneling and advanced Alchemy, per other Add ons) should also be barred from Non-allied races-- unless, of course, the ships were captured-- or earned, as some might say. The latter would be difficult to enforce, of course, since people could simply say they captured certain ships.

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Captain Blood
Posts: 294

Post#6 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:33 pm

Basically there are only 3 kind of actions in this game. Friendly, unfriendly and something in between. It might not be that easy to figure out how a specific action should be considdered. Most actions in this game can be all 3 things as I illustrate below.

Laying a minefield across a players cluster can be both frindly and unfrindly or neither depending on the situation. If you let him know the fc of the minefield it should in most cases be considdered friendly unless you give the fc to an attacker as well making it a hostile action.

Mining the cluster before attacking naturally unfreindly.

Mining another players cluster who is about to be overrun by priv witout letting him know the fc. If that is friendly or unfriendly will depend on the current situation in the cluster. Also your motive will be importent when deciding if it is a friendly or unfrienly action. As lizard who should be less concerned by priv. it might more likely be considdered a friendly action than for a rebel who don´t want priv to get to close.

What has the above to do with the no and 1 ally rule. If you and another player help each other by making friendly actions towards each other you can considder yourself allied. If the alliance is using FFx, ffx or is less formal is not really importent.

As I explained above it is not always possiable to tell if an action is friendly or unfriendly but usually the trail of actions always seems to be in 1 direction. :)
Regards,

Captain Blood

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Rimstalker
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Post#7 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:33 am

Just to give you guys some insight into the mindset of the game creator:

We were discussing some of the features of VPA on the planets newsgroup (storing stuff in the transporter beam, intercepting ships only visible in an ally's rst) and there were the weasly types that claimed that anything host.exe allows is a-ok.

I went forth, dug up a tool that Tanascius had written, and produced a RST where a planet had 2000 factories, with an all green host.log.

Tim went totally ballistic, and immediately released several host versions, first 2 or 3 that addressed the structures 'feature', then some more that disallowed those vpa features, then he added a switch to allow/disallow them and introduced the FFx alliance levels.
Wirklich reich ist, wer mehr | Truly rich is, who holds
Träume in seiner Seele hat, | more dreams in his soul
als die Realität zerstören kann.| than reality can destroy.

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JonnyDoH
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Post#8 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:06 am

Rimstalker wrote:Just to give you guys some insight into the mindset of the game creator:

We were discussing some of the features of VPA on the planets newsgroup (storing stuff in the transporter beam, intercepting ships only visible in an ally's rst) and there were the weasly types that claimed that anything host.exe allows is a-ok.

I went forth, dug up a tool that Tanascius had written, and produced a RST where a planet had 2000 factories, with an all green host.log.

Tim went totally ballistic, and immediately released several host versions, first 2 or 3 that addressed the structures 'feature', then some more that disallowed those vpa features, then he added a switch to allow/disallow them and introduced the FFx alliance levels.
Just curious-- since it's out that I don't fully understand all aspects of the game-- what does an "all green host.log" mean? Or rather, what are the implications of what you did versus how the game operated before?

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Rimstalker
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Post#9 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:24 am

host runs various checks on the universe to prevent cheating and it didn't see anything suspicious in a planet with 2000 factories.

Have you never mastered a game and run testgames?
Wirklich reich ist, wer mehr | Truly rich is, who holds
Träume in seiner Seele hat, | more dreams in his soul
als die Realität zerstören kann.| than reality can destroy.

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Cardno
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Post#10 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:32 am

Rimstalker wrote:Just to give you guys some insight into the mindset of the game creator:

We were discussing some of the features of VPA on the planets newsgroup (storing stuff in the transporter beam, intercepting ships only visible in an ally's rst) and there were the weasly types.
I couldn't agree more. These type of players are a joke.

As for those who co-operate during a "No Ally" game - all I can say is, toughen up. Ultimately you will learn more and be a better player by having to go it alone.

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JonnyDoH
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Post#11 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:02 pm

Rimstalker wrote:host runs various checks on the universe to prevent cheating and it didn't see anything suspicious in a planet with 2000 factories.

Have you never mastered a game and run testgames?
Yep. But I've only viewed things from individual race points of view. I'm not sure how to view things from the Host's perspective.

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Rimstalker
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Post#12 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:56 pm

when you run host.exe it creates a host.log file
Wirklich reich ist, wer mehr | Truly rich is, who holds
Träume in seiner Seele hat, | more dreams in his soul
als die Realität zerstören kann.| than reality can destroy.

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Donovan
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Post#13 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:59 am

JonnyDoH wrote:Just curious-- since it's out that I don't fully understand all aspects of the game-- what does an "all green host.log" mean? Or rather, what are the implications of what you did versus how the game operated before?
When Tim made host.exe, planets.exe and later Winplan, he imposed a lot of the 'rules' through the client programs, planets.exe and Winplan.

In Matthias' example: there is a limit to how many factories you are allowed to build with a certain number of colonists. Since planets.exe or Winplan had that limit built in to them, host.exe never checked if someone had built 'too many' factories.

When alternative clients like VPA were introduced, and people also found other ways to do stuff that planets.exe or Winplan would not allow, things got tricky. That is why there is now a host setting for 'VPA features', for example.

Matthias, as you may have noticed, likes to prove his point so he made a planet with 2000 factories. This should not be possible, it isn't possible with Winplan or planets.exe, and probably not with any other client like VPA. Yet host.exe did not label this as an error or cheating, so one could argue that this was not against any rules.

Which goes to show: if we start playing this game based on "if the software allows me to do this, it must be legal" like some of the folks in the no-ally / one-ally discussions have stated, it's going to be ugly.

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#14 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:13 am

Sure wish TimW had documented explicitly all the bugs that got
reported and fixed. Most of the bug fix notes in the changes
log were ambiguous at best. I understand why he didn't at the
time, but after he stopped supporting v3.2x host, it would have
been fun to read through the list chuckling.

The list is both long and hilarious.
Some of my favorites (all doable within the client without an editor):
The Train:
(Move your fleet across the galaxy without burning fuel!)
The Tow Slingshot:
(Yes, you could move through normal space double the distance!)
The Cloaked Intercept:
(Yes, you could intercept your enemy AND remain cloaked)
Almost free Infinite Bot & Bot Ally Minefields
(Before minefields had size limits... you could cover the galaxy!)

Nonclient bug:
Cloak any ship!

As I recall, Alex Ivlev (original VPA author) did a fair job trying to
keep VPA following the rules except for the access to allied info.


Donovan,

You didn't by chance make a buglist of the more egregious bugs did you?
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Rimstalker
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Post#15 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:17 am

Bane, you know this list?

http://phost.de/~stefan/timeline.html
Wirklich reich ist, wer mehr | Truly rich is, who holds
Träume in seiner Seele hat, | more dreams in his soul
als die Realität zerstören kann.| than reality can destroy.

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