Have you ever been "Backstabbed"?

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Death's Head
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Have you ever been "Backstabbed"?

Post#1 » Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:41 pm

Just thought I'd throw this question out there since it happened to me recently on another board and wanted to get a concensus of others out there who ever faced this situation. This game is a HW defense game with full kill option.... I'm the Romulans

General agreement with the Colonial is an established border with an E-mail confirm of no attack, no turn limit agreed to. I E-mailed requesting an
Alliance but he declined with offer of "possible" alliance suggested perhaps in the future, and excuse of no RST receipt that, "Ive been burned before". RED FLAG!

Anyhow a secure border is agreed to and I move forces to hit my other flank, the Rebel. A few turns down the road I see 3 Virgos and 4 or 5 Pattis headed at me. I e-mail asking "what's up" and I get an apology but he has to attack me. :evil:

So to make a long story short and get back to the question. I got waxed in the long run, made him bleed good though. :shock: So anyone else out there ever have a NAP or Alliance broken?

No one likes it, but at least it not the norm since most players can be trusted. :) Just hurts when you get burnt.... :-({|=
Death's Head (Your Worst Nightmare)

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Rimstalker
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Post#2 » Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:45 pm

I had the world famous author of Echoview, Stefan Glasauer, talk two of my neighbours, which I had peace treaties with, into attacking me....

And all that, because I was whooping his ass.

I have also once or twice pretended to be friendly and then attacked, but that was with real-life friends. Playing online I have not backstabbed.
Last edited by Rimstalker on Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Wirklich reich ist, wer mehr | Truly rich is, who holds
Träume in seiner Seele hat, | more dreams in his soul
als die Realität zerstören kann.| than reality can destroy.

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Shardin5
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Post#3 » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:47 am

This is very similar to a problem I have comeing up.
Agreed to a NAP with a race, who has taken a NAP, to new levels.
I have had GOOD allies that didn't communicate like he has. The Race in question has also started involving me like I was like his Ally which I am NOT, its just a NAP. But he includes me in every communication that he has with his Ally, now the NAP is coming to and end, and where I don't plan on attacking either one of them, I almost feel like I would be backstabbing with all the INFO that has been sent my way.
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VilleK
Posts: 89

Post#4 » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:14 am

I've had to 'backstab' (attack a NAP-player) a few times because I've been allied/NAPped with too many players and you cannot be everyone's friend ;) Naturally I value alliances over NAP's..

Lesson #1: You can't play at both sides.

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Mika
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Post#5 » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:08 am

Usually I only sign NAPs with a turn number or throughout the game. Just have a NAP with a neighbour until turn 40... In that case I will contact my neighbour around turn 35 and tell him that I'm not going to keep peace. I think that is fair and I do not expect the same in return. If it says turn 40 he can cross my borders in turn 41 and that is ok.

On RC World I met a funny guy... he was playing Lizard and got attacked by the Birds (poor player but took his hw with two resolutes). From that moment on the Lizards were crippled. I had a good relationship to both and the Lizard asked for "protection for servitude". I played the colonies btw... I was using the diplomatic way to have peace between my neighbours. The Lizard allied with me and as far as I could see he was a really good player... but he refused to share RSTs. Of course 10 turns before the game ended I saw freighters coming my way (race plus... the freighters were t-rexes of course) and he destroyed some of my bases and built about 45 bases in 3 turns. You can imagine that timscore was the score we used as winning condition.

That was a classical backstab. I never did it so far and I always remember the names of people backstabbing me. I also remember the names of people using diplomacy just to save time to prepare for an attack. I never ally with them again and if YOU are reading this and know that we are in the same game again YOU can be sure that I'm going to gill YOU! ;)

Nothing personal about that... simply not fair if you ask me and therefore I prefer to take out players that are not worthy living in the same galaxy with me :)
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Cherek
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Post#6 » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:43 am

Most of the time, when I do a NAP, I throw in a clause that says I will give the other player X amount of turns before I break a NAP, that way, there is no backstabbing.
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B A N E
Posts: 3777

NAPs, ffx, FFx and RST sharing.

Post#7 » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:23 am

Be careful to stick to the letter and carefully consider the spirit.

NAPs: Turn limited and game long.
Generally, NAPs IMO should be turn limited with options of renewal.
Game long NAPs are equivalent to a weak alliance.
NAPs are well served by renewal/cancellation turn limit notification.

IMO, NAPs should never include RST sharing.
NAPs don't necessarily require the ffx/FFx code.
I may make a NAP with another race but refuse the ffx offer due
to ensuring that my minefields still work as a deterrence.

ffx is a weak alliance and for NAPs.
FFx is a stronger alliance and for true allies.
RST sharing is for those trusted or in an attempt to trust.

Border agreements and Border violations.
Once a border is set, any violation of that border can be an act of war.
Exceptions are explicit permissions given to specific ships.

Acts of War jeopardize any previous agreement including RST sharing.
Accidents happen, misunderstandings happen.

There are exceptions to rules.

In Wing Commander I:
I had a limited NAP with another player and in their view, I violated
the border. After discussion with the offended party, reparations
were offered and clarifications made, the dispute was put to rest.
No offense was intended and no ill will exists between either party.
I would welcome/consider any future negotiations with that person.

Consider the other guy's POV.

Reputation will stick with you if you intend to keep the same alias.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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AngryJohnny
Posts: 293

Post#8 » Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:34 pm

I think every player has been back stabbed at one point or another. I've also had occasions where players will try to find a loop hole in the NAP or alliance. When I set a NAP it's usually because I have other plans & don't want to get involved on 2 fronts. I am always sure to outline specifics of what will be concidered breaking the NAP. Typically I also don't place a turn limit on the NAP unless the other player wants a turn limit. I avoid sharing *.rst unless I have a good alliance with the other race & plan to have coordinated movements with them at some point. I've had a situation were a player was allied with another player who backstabbed him. They were exchanging *.rst files. Once player B turned on player A, player A approached me with an alliance offering the *.rst file of his once ally. Of course I declined - to me this would be unfair. He was offended & decided to attack me while fighting his former ally. In doing so he broke a NAP that we had set up to run until the end of the game. This is why I don't like *.rst sharing unless I know I can trust the player - You never know who's hands your *.rst will end up in & I don't feel that's right.

For those who may encounter me in a game:

NAP - Secured border - no crossing of the border unless request is made & granted 5 turns before the border crossing. Also, the exact mission & purpose for the crossing MUST be explained. If a border crossing is permitted & the stated mission is not performed this is equivalent to breaking the NAP, just as crossing w/out permission would be. No ffx or FFx with NAP. If I establish a NAP it is to secure a border & avoid an unwanted fight. Talks are always open for ffx or FFx alliances after a suitible number of turns (usually 5 - 10) with the NAP. I also use NAP to see if I can trust a player in a future alliance.

ffx - Weak alliance - I permit you to pass through my space with out prior permission & expect the same privilage in return. I may concider ship trades also sharing of intelligence. I will also allow allied ships to have fuel from my planets when passing through my space. If more than 2 ships are passing in my space I expect an explaination to ensure they are not intended to take action towards me & will provide the same courtesy. When I set ffx alliance I generally wont engage in joint ventures. As always the posibility of FFx alliance is always open for debate but I will usualy wait for a few turns to make sure I can trust the player.

FFx - Full alliance - I will share any & all intel gathered. I will allow unlimited ship movement in my space. I also will engage in ship trades, mineral & resource sharing. I also will engage in joint opperations when possible & when it does not leave me at a disadvantage. Sharing *.rst files is something that is possible but not garanteed & will need to be discussed.

When I set a NAP, ffx or FFx - I will not be the one to break our agreement. If there is an action on the other players part that I feel breaks our agreement I will allow the other player to explain themselves & try to work out any missunderstandings before becoming hostile & I expect the same as I will never intentionally break an agrement I hav made. As BANE said, accidents happen & so do missunderstandings. I try to avoid this by being as clear as possible when initially making the agreement. To me, you have to play honorably. If you make an agrement you need to keep your word.

Enough of my 2 cents - I have a related question for you all on NAP's & alliances.

If party A & party B are fighting, & one of those parties offers a NAP or alliance what do you all do with the fight?

Do you continue operations until an agrement is made?

Do you stop operations for a predetermined amount of turns until an agrement is made?

Or is there some other way you handle setting up or negotiating a NAP or alliance with your enemy while engaged with them?


-- Angry Johnny

"If you wish to make the gods laugh, tell them your plans"

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Cherek
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Post#9 » Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:45 pm

AngryJohnny wrote:NAP - Secured border - no crossing of the border unless request is made & granted 5 turns before the border crossing. Also, the exact mission & purpose for the crossing MUST be explained. If a border crossing is permitted & the stated mission is not performed this is equivalent to breaking the NAP, just as crossing w/out permission would be. No ffx or FFx with NAP. If I establish a NAP it is to secure a border & avoid an unwanted fight. Talks are always open for ffx or FFx alliances after a suitible number of turns (usually 5 - 10) with the NAP. I also use NAP to see if I can trust a player in a future alliance.
I agree with you on most of what you say here. If it is a single ship that crosses my border without permission, I will fire off an email quickly to ask "What's up about that ship?" If it is multiple warships headed towards my border or crosses it, then the intention would speak very loud.
AngryJohnny wrote:Enough of my 2 cents - I have a related question for you all on NAP's & alliances.

If party A & party B are fighting, & one of those parties offers a NAP or alliance what do you all do with the fight?

Do you continue operations until an agrement is made?

Do you stop operations for a predetermined amount of turns until an agrement is made?

Or is there some other way you handle setting up or negotiating a NAP or alliance with your enemy while engaged with them?
This is tricky area and everyone should handle it their own way. I immediately email the person so that we can start our talks. This becomes a real pain in the ARSE when the other player email address is <PRIVATE>. I then send the person an in-game message saying "Email me at cherek_us@yahoo.com!" If I don't get an email from the person, then for the next two turns, I'll continue my attack or stop my attacks depending on my mood is at the time.
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Cherek

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lord vinny
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Post#10 » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:12 pm

too bad everyone doesnt play as honorably as yall...i will make a nap to keep from fighting someone at the moment..but even if i plan on future fighting i will break the nap/etc before...

i just got backstabbed by a longtime ally..a game at trn 91..i have been allied with 2 others since the 1st trn almost...the 1st ally has slowly been beating back by the bots..and now my 2nd ally decides that since the enemy is closing in on his space too..he will change sides to save his ass...

rst sharing and all...and i was wondering why the bots knew just where to send his golems and where to bypass until later...needless to say my former ally will be a target for me in any new game we play in and ill never trust him again...
:evil:

ive always been an eye for an eye type of person...dont like cheating or lying...so far playing this game ive found afew good allies and alot of crappy ones...but thats life for ya :bricks:
yuck!...Who's got the cat breath?

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Death's Head
Posts: 262

Post#11 » Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:10 am

Damn Vinny sounds like you got burnt even worse than I did !! :shock:

I so despise a player who can't keep his word for the simple gain of a rank position in a game. This type of person exemplifies the evil of our race and is so prevelant in real life as well.

It may be a game, but the person who stoops to such low measures in a game to win must really have low values and ethics in real life as well. That is the sad part....

As for the eye for an eye. I have to agree which also is somewhat sad as it too is an example of the human species way of dealing with injustice. :smashy: :bang: :whip:

Let them eat cake !! :evil:
Death's Head (Your Worst Nightmare)

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Olyrin
Posts: 105

Post#12 » Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:41 am

I’ve never been outright backstabbed but I have had problems with allies in most games. My problems has been more along the lines of allies that either miss turns or simply don’t play very well. There is nothing quite like spending hours carefully planning your turns only to watch your enemies succeed because your ally does not show up or does not think through the turns very well. How do the rest of you avoid or deal with underperforming allies?
It is not the critic who counts...
The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena...

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FLETCH
Posts: 1440

Post#13 » Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:18 am

I think you would need to voice your concerns to your ally. Some people may not realise they are dragging the chain and sometimes pointing these things out can be the kick start they need. If they don't realise there is a problem, how can they fix it? Others just may not be very good players or don't have the time to commit, or maybe just aren't taking it very seriously. In these cases I would suggest you soldier on as best you can and don't ally with them again in the future. Having an ally can help you alot in that given game, but it can also teach you a great deal about the other persons style of play. Any shortfalls you see in thier gameplay when they are your ally can only help you when you meet each other the next time from opposite sides :twisted:
FLETCH


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lord vinny
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Post#14 » Sun Dec 10, 2006 7:27 pm

Death's Head wrote:Damn Vinny sounds like you got burnt even worse than I did !! :shock:

I so despise a player who can't keep his word for the simple gain of a rank position in a game. This type of person exemplifies the evil of our race and is so prevelant in real life as well :evil:
Well, he said he didnt really ally with me..so he didnt see it as backstabbing..just playing me as a fool i guess...but it was a crappy thing to do :poop: and cost me and my true ally to lose in the end..partly because of the enemy knew where to hit..but also because we waited alot of trns for our "ally" to send in his fleet to help in the main offensive we had planned... :x lesson learned the hard way! :pointlaugh: :buttkick:

as for problems with allies..id say one of the worst problems ive had is communication...i was allied with someone in a recent game and i honestly talked more with my enemy then i did my ally!...if ur working together u need to plan stuff together..share spy reports, etc..

another problem is helping yer ally out..if they need fighters for their ships..and your playing the bots, colonials etc...there is no reason u shouldnt help them out...i dont tell my allies everything im planning..but if were rst sharing and i notice that he needs something ive got in excess..ill give it to him...

like i said b4..ive found some good allies..and some that just rub my fur the wrong damn way :grind:
yuck!...Who's got the cat breath?

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Cornrelius
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Backstabbing

Post#15 » Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:53 pm

Now my 2 cents.

I have been backstabbed several times.

Sometimes it was funny (in a game at LFL I was playing Colonies, had a border set up with Fascist, when some turns later a lonely MDSF of his approached a planet of mine... something I only noticed, because the Patriot guarding that planet was set to KILL and captures the MDSF which was full of clans... a short email later confirmed, yes, that was supposed to be an attack...).

Most of the times it was not funny, however. My very first internet game ended quick for me (=Empire) when my Lizard neighbour suddenly broke the border agreement and simply overran me with ground attacks...

The most vicious backstab I encountered was in a game where the host person played (not really a fully automated host). I was Fed, host played Colonies. There were Jumpgates in this game. I had moved most of my home fleet to the front where some evil add-on ships were marauding. The turn after I suffered heavy losses there (something that besides me only the host would know), the host player broke a full alliance and attacked. He jump-gate-ed in (knew the codes from the alliance) with several Virgos right into the core of my little Empire, immediately destroyed the Jumpgate (so my forward fleet could not return quickly) laid mines and destroyed my core starbases. That hurt.

I cannot remember breaking an alliance or NAP myself - with the exception that I do not feel myself being bound to any agreement if a player drops and a new player or c-player takes over. Usually I will try to renew the agreement with the succeeding human player, but cplayers do not deserve mercy - they don't honour pacts anyway.

- Cornrelius
www.cornrelius.de - The VGA Planets War Academy

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