Have you ever been "Backstabbed"?

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Cornrelius
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Post#16 » Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:04 pm

On a related note -
there was this game where I made a NAP with another race. That other race was Borg, and Borg wanted to be permitted to cross my territory with probes, so the NAP was worded:
Borders agreed upon. Ships may cross the borders, but only single ships, not more than one at a time. Those single ships may not make planetfalls, and may neither attack or be attacked.
Fine so far.
I was Colonies however, and when my Priv ally wanted to attack Borg (no NAP between Priv and Borg), he towed one of my Geminis, fully loaded with fighters and set to "mine sweep", which in turn enabled the Priv to rob the whole Borg fleet. Of course the Gemini made no attacks and no planetfall...

What do you think of something like that? Would this make me a backstabber in your eyes?

- Cornrelius
www.cornrelius.de - The VGA Planets War Academy

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Catman
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Post#17 » Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:24 pm

Olyrin wrote:I’ve never been outright backstabbed but I have had problems with allies in most games. My problems has been more along the lines of allies that either miss turns or simply don’t play very well. There is nothing quite like spending hours carefully planning your turns only to watch your enemies succeed because your ally does not show up or does not think through the turns very well. How do the rest of you avoid or deal with underperforming allies?
Yea, sometimes you pick up underperforming allies either unknowingly or more often in my case...fear of them attacking you because you are so close to each other at turn 5 :lol:

My first time playing Klingon I allied with Birdman to my north. Colonies came down from his north and had taken us both out before turn 20. He wasn't a very good shield :lol: leaving me no time to prepare defenses.

In either case, once I notice he is not performing satisfactorily I send good emails, kinda taking a leadership role, at the same time explaining why we do the things we do, quoting documents...sending links and such so he learns along the way, thus making him a better player...in my mind :lol:

Catman

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Shardin5
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Post#18 » Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:48 pm

Cornrelius wrote:On a related note -
there was this game where I made a NAP with another race. That other race was Borg, and Borg wanted to be permitted to cross my territory with probes, so the NAP was worded:
Borders agreed upon. Ships may cross the borders, but only single ships, not more than one at a time. Those single ships may not make planetfalls, and may neither attack or be attacked.
Fine so far.
I was Colonies however, and when my Priv ally wanted to attack Borg (no NAP between Priv and Borg), he towed one of my Geminis, fully loaded with fighters and set to "mine sweep", which in turn enabled the Priv to rob the whole Borg fleet. Of course the Gemini made no attacks and no planetfall...

What do you think of something like that? Would this make me a backstabber in your eyes?

- Cornrelius
It would have been better to end the NAP with the Borg. Where you didn't attack his planets, YOU set the ship to MINESWEEP the Borg defences, and removed them, so that was an attack on the Borg by you, IMHO that is.
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The US Marines don't have that problem.
President Ronald Reagan

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Shardin5
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Post#19 » Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:11 pm

Catman wrote:
Olyrin wrote:I’ve never been outright backstabbed but I have had problems with allies in most games. My problems has been more along the lines of allies that either miss turns or simply don’t play very well. There is nothing quite like spending hours carefully planning your turns only to watch your enemies succeed because your ally does not show up or does not think through the turns very well. How do the rest of you avoid or deal with underperforming allies?
Yea, sometimes you pick up underperforming allies either unknowingly or more often in my case...fear of them attacking you because you are so close to each other at turn 5 :lol:

My first time playing Klingon I allied with Birdman to my north. Colonies came down from his north and had taken us both out before turn 20. He wasn't a very good shield :lol: leaving me no time to prepare defenses.

In either case, once I notice he is not performing satisfactorily I send good emails, kinda taking a leadership role, at the same time explaining why we do the things we do, quoting documents...sending links and such so he learns along the way, thus making him a better player...in my mind :lol:

Catman
I have been there(the Newbie without a clue) and allied with others who didn't have a clue as well. I do like you do Catman, take them under you care. If they don't listen, then I drop Alliance all together, and its war, or I just ignore them. What irrates me more, is the more seasoned player that drops when something doesn't go right, and leaves me in a lurch, as you have no idea on what will happen when somebody else picks up the game. I normally don't ally with people early any more, easier to do a NAP until turn xx, and move on from there. I made the mistake just recently and I am now paying the price.
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The US Marines don't have that problem.
President Ronald Reagan

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Catman
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Post#20 » Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:48 pm

Sounds similar to a situation I'm in now. Had Privies as an ally. He did nothing. To me, a Privy that has no other races ship in his inventory is not a Privy.

Anyhooo, he dropped out. Now someone has taken over and there are countless MBRs at my unprotected backdoor and I have no prepared defenses. I may have said too much. Still waiting to see what he will do. Which leads me to this question....

What would everyone else do?
I myself would probably still honor the alliance or at least give an opportunity for the player to build his defense. There is no honor in defeating someone like this.

Same goes for a player that has missed a few turns, especially in the early game, and happens to be a neighbor...doesn't this make your mouth water? Me too, but I will at least attempt to see if the player dropped or there is a good reason for missing trns and only take his territory if he dropped.


Catman

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the.Ant
Posts: 283

Post#21 » Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:40 am

Cornrelius wrote: What do you think of something like that? Would this make me a backstabber in your eyes?
Ouch, this is really borderline. You were true to the words of the NAP, in that way you did not backstab, but I think you disregarded the intention of the NAP, because your ship was actively involved in an invasion of enemy territory, thus I would agree with Enemy #1
I see the problem here however not as much with your behaviour but with the formulation of the NAP. What you describe is in my eyes a border agreement, NAP is a non-agression packt and you were agressive.

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Cornrelius
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Post#22 » Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:51 am

the.Ant wrote:Ouch, this is really borderline.
Indeed, nowadays I am ambiguous as well about that situation. It sounded fun back then. I was young...

You wil learn to know me as trustworthy anyway.

- Cornrelius
www.cornrelius.de - The VGA Planets War Academy

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Desert-Fox
Posts: 322

Post#23 » Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:37 pm

Cornrelius wrote:On a related note -
there was this game where I made a NAP with another race. That other race was Borg, and Borg wanted to be permitted to cross my territory with probes, so the NAP was worded:
Borders agreed upon. Ships may cross the borders, but only single ships, not more than one at a time. Those single ships may not make planetfalls, and may neither attack or be attacked.
Fine so far.
I was Colonies however, and when my Priv ally wanted to attack Borg (no NAP between Priv and Borg), he towed one of my Geminis, fully loaded with fighters and set to "mine sweep", which in turn enabled the Priv to rob the whole Borg fleet. Of course the Gemini made no attacks and no planetfall...

What do you think of something like that? Would this make me a backstabber in your eyes?

- Cornrelius
I call it a backstab plain and simple. A Non-Aggession Pact means just that...no Aggression unless it's been made clear that certain rules apply, like a date for the resumpton of hostilities or a declaration that before you institute hostilities you will give notice. None of which you did. The aggression in your case was setting the Gemini to intentionally sweep Borg mines. You tried to offer 'plausible denability' by saying it was the Privateers who were the aggressors but my friend you were his ally and you knowingly allowed your ship to used to do something you would have been called on had your ship gone in on your direction. [-X

DF
Suck it up, Cupcake!

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AngryJohnny
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Post#24 » Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:25 pm

Cornrelius wrote: I was Colonies however, and when my Priv ally wanted to attack Borg (no NAP between Priv and Borg), he towed one of my Geminis, fully loaded with fighters and set to "mine sweep", which in turn enabled the Priv to rob the whole Borg fleet. Of course the Gemini made no attacks and no planetfall...

What do you think of something like that? Would this make me a backstabber in your eyes?

- Cornrelius
I would say yes - You made a Non-Agression Pact with the Borg. This means there will be no attacks made. Just because your Gemini did not attack a ship or a planet, it still attacked the mine field & allowed the pirate to run wild. Also, just because the pirate towed the ship which was set to mine sweep does not obsolve you from breaking the NAP, because this was done with your permission. So in my eyes, based on the info we have, Yes, you backstabbed the Borg to hold your alliance with the Pirate.

Question is this did the Borg know you were allied with the Pirate? If so were there any provisions made that if it came between your ally the Pirate or your NAP Borg, you'd side with your Ally?

Also, how did the Borg react to this action? Did he send a message to you at all? If so what did he say & how did you respond?


-- Angry Johnny

"If you wish to make the gods laugh, tell them your plans"

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Cornrelius
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Post#25 » Sat Dec 23, 2006 5:29 am

AngryJohnny wrote:Question is this did the Borg know you were allied with the Pirate? If so were there any provisions made that if it came between your ally the Pirate or your NAP Borg, you'd side with your Ally?

Also, how did the Borg react to this action? Did he send a message to you at all? If so what did he say & how did you respond?
- Borg must have known Privateer and me were allied - he had plenty of chances watching allied maneuvres against other players.

- No talk ever took place about what would happen if Borg and Privateers would clash.

- Borgs reaction: after privateer stole 3 Biocides in his first attack wave (2-3 turns) Borg stopped submitting turns. On that host you would be the official player for 10 turns before a C-player took over. By the end of that time, Borg had only 5 ships left. No communication ever was made with me.

Side note: talk about a blown-up borg: in TimScore he was leader in score, had a huge number of bases and warships. But the warships were mostly probes and merlins, and the Priv had no problems with them. The bases took longer, because priv only had 1 (later 2) SSDs.... Altogether Priv invaded what looked at that time to be a fully developed Borg core empire with nothing but 4 MBRs, my Gemini, and a SSD (the second came way later) - and basically it was a walk-through.

- Cornrelius
www.cornrelius.de - The VGA Planets War Academy

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AngryJohnny
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Post#26 » Sat Dec 23, 2006 2:34 pm

Cornrelius wrote: - Borg must have known Privateer and me were allied - he had plenty of chances watching allied maneuvres against other players.

- No talk ever took place about what would happen if Borg and Privateers would clash.

- Borgs reaction: after privateer stole 3 Biocides in his first attack wave (2-3 turns) Borg stopped submitting turns. On that host you would be the official player for 10 turns before a C-player took over. By the end of that time, Borg had only 5 ships left. No communication ever was made with me.


- Cornrelius
Personally, because there were no discussions with the borg regarding what you the pirate ally would do if the borg or pirate ever made a move on each other, I think you that you did break the NAP with the borg, even though you didn't attack any ships or planets.

I in your position in that game, I would have informed my ally that I have a NAP with the other race & that I would either have to give notice of breaking the NAP or stay neutral.

My 2 cents...


-- Angry Johnny

"If you wish to make the gods laugh, tell them your plans"

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scooby dood
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Post#27 » Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:13 am

I agree. Everyone gets backstabbed. I had a bad expirence in my first game because of it. I was the Klingons and allied to the Birda. I made a RST exchange (too early) and I found out he resent my turn in at the last moment. I immediately read non - stop strategies that came in handy later.
I was ready for war so I build 5-8 cloakers went over to his homeworld and pillaged. Then I build Tech 10 ships and killed him out by turn 30.
This has happened too many times to me yet I still keep on playing. This is the reason i Like Arrow of Apollo.

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hennef
Posts: 2250

Post#28 » Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:44 am

scooby dood wrote:I agree. Everyone gets backstabbed. I had a bad expirence in my first game because of it. I was the Klingons and allied to the Birda. I made a RST exchange (too early) and I found out he resent my turn in at the last moment. I immediately read non - stop strategies that came in handy later.
I was ready for war so I build 5-8 cloakers went over to his homeworld and pillaged. Then I build Tech 10 ships and killed him out by turn 30.
This has happened too many times to me yet I still keep on playing. This is the reason i Like Arrow of Apollo.
wait? did he resend your turn in on purpose or by accident?
have fun!

hennef

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Shardin5
Posts: 3808

Post#29 » Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:13 am

DF,
Where did you find that Master Chief Avatar?
I like that one alot? You play Halo? and if so, Console or PC?
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The US Marines don't have that problem.
President Ronald Reagan

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Desert-Fox
Posts: 322

Post#30 » Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:12 pm

Enemy#1 wrote:DF,
Where did you find that Master Chief Avatar?
I like that one alot? You play Halo? and if so, Console or PC?
Found it on BUNGIE's website. Yup. I play Halo. The first Halso game I bought for the PC and played it through...loved it. My son got an Xbox for Christmas so I made sure that Halo 2 was included :)
I've finished Halo 2 and now chomping at the bit for 3 to come out.
Love the game. Good story line and great action....a good stress reliever after a hard day at work. :fighting18:


DF
Suck it up, Cupcake!

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