Killrace for quitters?

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Poll: Killrace for quitters ?

Yes
4
44%
No
5
56%
Couldn't care less
0
No votes
Total votes: 9

VilleK
Posts: 89

Killrace for quitters?

Post#1 » Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:33 am

So, this pops up every now and then:

Would you support killrace for quitters ? The Cplayers are bad, no matter what you are using. And in many cases it unbalances the game a lot. Running killrace would not destroy the balance - it would simply add a number of empty planets and if the game has progressed for some time those will most likely be empty. Anyway, the results of killrace would be less severe than computer taking over.

I think I don't need to give detailed examples why it unbalances the game - you all must have encountered occasions where cplayer and the former empire is recklessly abused :)

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AngryJohnny
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Post#2 » Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:01 pm

I think if Kill Race is to be used it should be up to the host. The host should review the standings of the race when a player drops, if there is hope for the race to recover with a replacement player leave it in the game. If the previous player badly mutilated the race then kill it w/kill race.

Seeing as the Host does not have time to review all the empty slots when a player drops a game, this is not practical. So I say leave the race in the game & see if a replacement player takes it over & can salvage the empire - (I was beaten very badly by a replacement player who took the race from ruin & rebiult & then waxed me) if not, the cplayer is always a fun target...

Official vote - NO


-- Angry Johnny

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Havok
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Post#3 » Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:12 pm

I'm for it, but it can cause problems too.

I've gone in and killed off computer based races and had it cause an uproar for a player who had been working on them and felt their prize of war had been spoiled because first the player of said race had quit and now I had nuked the computer player which took away everything else.

I can see the point to that.

I've found another program recently that's like Killrace that actually takes the targeted race and basically presses the "pause" button on them. It also puts the races into a defensive posture. I've only used it once and it did what it was supposed to do. I never got any feedback from the game players though.

Official Vote: Yes (Under the right circumstances)
Regards,
][avok

VilleK
Posts: 89

Post#4 » Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:11 pm

Yeah, it depends of the conditions but as host(s) don't usually have time to monitor all games it should be on or off :) I've also seen good replacement player taking place but usually, in 9/10 cases, it has been more negative thing. Not necessary on me but on the game balance in general...

And of course, I've gained from quitters many, many times and looks like I'll be gaining again in few turns @ here too ;) BUT, I don't like to win my battles by when others quit :(

... Deleting the whole race would keep the situtation closest to "zero"...

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

It's a mixed bag...

Post#5 » Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:33 pm

Spacelord is arguably the best of the cplayers because it does not
cheat and plays an average game of VGAP.

Q cheats too much to stomach and plays stupidly as some races.
Dominate cheats some and plays worse than Q.
Cplayer cheats and plays horribly.
I don't recall how Admiral plays.

Spacelord has some tactical and strategic problems, but it doesn't
break rules thereby boning certain races.

Killrace deprives folks of spoils of war.
Killrace creates a void / safe zone.

So, there's good & bad.

Perhaps in the future, C-M will acquire :wink: someone to review
situations and make an assessment on which solution would best
fit any one game.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Mika
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Post#6 » Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:00 pm

killing races with only a few planets/ships is a must I think... but when it comes to larger numbers it is getting complicated. The problem is that torp races have to cripple their enemies early in the game. If the Fed/Gorn/Bird/Fascist (and if fight is unavoidable the Crystal) see a Gorbie/Biocide/Golem coming and they have to sacrifice two and sometimes even three ships just to kill it (yeah... I know there are poppers, combos and whatever but let's make it simple right now) it can be very very annoying if a race gets killed.

I suffered from a killrace in Delphi tournament at battlestar host. I was playing the Gorn and almost killed the Rebel. That guy was retreating and everything was fine. I had so myn pbps that I could start another war with the Colonies but then the Bots were killed. Let's say I had 12 bases, the Colonies "just" 8 or something. Now it's simple maths again. To have an easier example again let's say I built 6 Trex and 6 madonnzilas and my enemy built 8 Virgos.

Just run the sim and then see what happened. The weaker economy with ~1/3 less bases still got an advantage from killrace.

The conclusion is that whenever there is a war of a torper race vs a carrier race killrace always shifts the balance towards the fighter race. Since they are considered to be "stronger" anyway I don't think that is fair.

But that doesn't help the discussion... I do not know what is better :)
I'd prefer spacelord or if necessary even the Q (annoying because of silly cheats like intercepting cloaked ships, making fuel, etc) I think. That gives the winner or a war the chance to take the pray but it's still a bit bloody if you have to kill some Golems.

Cheers
Mika
Oderint dum metuant.
---------------------------------------------
Bella gerant alii, tu, felix Austria, nube!

mike w

Post#7 » Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:46 pm

I would think , a lot would depend on the conditions of the game ,me personally I like a replacement or a good Q

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Havok
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Post#8 » Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:19 pm

mike w wrote:I would think , a lot would depend on the conditions of the game ,me personally I like a replacement or a good Q
A replacement player is always good, but you're not always going to get one, especially if the race is in bad shape and the original player quit.

For computer players, I prefer Spacelord. The main reason for this is that it plays with the RST file just like us humans. Every other computer player cheats. I find Spacelord is also very good with the economy's of the races it plays. It's intresting to watch it in action.

After Spacelord, I'll take The Q.
Regards,
][avok

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the.Ant
Posts: 283

Post#9 » Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:55 am

I am against it, I think Killrace messes up the game too much. You have been fighting an enemy with great effort and when your plans are beginning to bear fruit the idiot drops (everyone who drops just because he is loosing is an idiot IMHO, except when his defeat means the end of the game) and you gain no PBPs. On the contrary, everybody else benefits, from the new open shipslots. If you are empire, it's even worse: no starbases left to conquer. Also, all other neighbours (say former allies of the dropper) can now most easily colonize his planets, while you are still busy with warships on your frontline. Additional annoyance: Minefields are still there...

I agree that cheating computer players are annoying as well (especially if you are a capturing race), but I would rather have a race lying around doing nothing, ready for the picking, than just killracing it.

I know only one situation where Killrace might be useful: In one game, I (bird), defeated an enemy (no ships left, but some maxed starbases). Now I have those few stale starbases in the middle of my territory. They pose no threat, but I cannot attack them withoug loosing valuable ships. That's a bit annoying. On the other hand, I don't _have_ to attack them, I just set them all on bum and occiasionally fly by to collect the moneys.

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Havok
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Post#10 » Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:08 am

the.Ant wrote:I am against it, I think Killrace messes up the game too much. You have been fighting an enemy with great effort and when your plans are beginning to bear fruit the idiot drops (everyone who drops just because he is loosing is an idiot IMHO, except when his defeat means the end of the game) and you gain no PBPs. On the contrary, everybody else benefits, from the new open shipslots. If you are empire, it's even worse: no starbases left to conquer. Also, all other neighbours (say former allies of the dropper) can now most easily colonize his planets, while you are still busy with warships on your frontline. Additional annoyance: Minefields are still there....
I partially agree with you, and addressed this a bit earlier in the thread. But that's also the point of Killrace. It opens things up for everyone. Planet's, the ship Queue, etc. As the host, you don't want your players sitting there playing a computer opponent because they know that's the only opponent they can beat either. It happens, believe me. But I do see your point and the program has to be used very carefully.
the.Ant wrote:I agree that cheating computer players are annoying as well (especially if you are a capturing race), but I would rather have a race lying around doing nothing, ready for the picking, than just killracing it.
But ready for the picking isn't a challenge either. That's why I'm looking into the other program I mentioned earlier. Even though the bottom line is to conquer the galaxy, it's also to conquer other players, not abandoned ones.
the.Ant wrote:I know only one situation where Killrace might be useful: In one game, I (bird), defeated an enemy (no ships left, but some maxed starbases). Now I have those few stale starbases in the middle of my territory. They pose no threat, but I cannot attack them withoug loosing valuable ships. That's a bit annoying. On the other hand, I don't _have_ to attack them, I just set them all on bum and occiasionally fly by to collect the moneys.
:twisted:
Regards,
][avok

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RealMurphy
Posts: 150

Post#11 » Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:27 am

I would simply let them stay as they are without and cplayer. Why?

cplayer: might/will not honor agree to "treaties", no agression, etc. this can really make life hard, if you rely on it

killrace: this can push the balance quite far. In one of my first games (shareware) my neighbour qiot and was killraced after 20 turns. My position was good, but a war was building up between us. With him suddenly gone, I could claim quite a few planets from him (including his HW) which was still holding vast quantities of ore.

Thus, I think nothing should be done about it, maybe except putting all to ATT/NUK/force surrender

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Shardin5
Posts: 3808

Post#12 » Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:56 am

The game where I wanted them killed. Player quit before trade agreement was finished(REALLY has me PISSED OFF) an one of his Enemies is in place to rack up a bunch of free ships, via Capture or PBP's. C-Players DO NOT PLAY the pirates worth a darn.
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Cherek
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Post#13 » Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:00 pm

It seems like a lot of players have their opinion about KillRace and I’m no different. After following this topic for awhile and another one about KillRace, I can say that I haven’t changed my opinion about it.

I feel that when player just drops out, throw in a CP, open up the race so that someone can take it over. If no one took over the race in five turns or turn 20, whichever one is longer, then you KillRace them.

When you use KillRace, all you really are doing is making owned planets unowned, freeing up some ship slots to be filled, alliances are cancelled. The minerals (I’m not sure about supplies and MCs, but since the planet is unowned supplies and MC are stopped being produced, unless only Aliens are the only lifeform on the planet) on the planet are not destroyed.

Here is a host question. I’m in a game with eleven players that host runs Monday and Thursday. Everyone is good at getting there turns in early. On after host runs, two players just drop out of the game and are placed by Spacelord. The nine other players have their turns in by noon on Tuesday. When does host run?
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Havok
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Post#14 » Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:21 pm

Enemy#1 wrote:The game where I wanted them killed. Player quit before trade agreement was finished(REALLY has me PISSED OFF) an one of his Enemies is in place to rack up a bunch of free ships, via Capture or PBP's. C-Players DO NOT PLAY the pirates worth a darn.
Yeah, no Cplayer does the Privateers worth a hoot :)
Regards,
][avok

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Havok
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Post#15 » Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:27 pm

Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote:It seems like a lot of players have their opinion about KillRace and I’m no different. After following this topic for awhile and another one about KillRace, I can say that I haven’t changed my opinion about it.

I feel that when player just drops out, throw in a CP, open up the race so that someone can take it over. If no one took over the race in five turns or turn 20, whichever one is longer, then you KillRace them.

When you use KillRace, all you really are doing is making owned planets unowned, freeing up some ship slots to be filled, alliances are cancelled. The minerals (I’m not sure about supplies and MCs, but since the planet is unowned supplies and MC are stopped being produced, unless only Aliens are the only lifeform on the planet) on the planet are not destroyed.
That's similar to how I try and do it when I choose to Killrace. I learned the hard way as well. As a new host almost 2 years ago, I went through the games one Saturday afternoon and did a lot of wholesale Killracing and it caused quite a bit of grumbling from some of the players. You really have to take it into consideration before running it.
Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote:Here is a host question. I’m in a game with eleven players that host runs Monday and Thursday. Everyone is good at getting there turns in early. On after host runs, two players just drop out of the game and are placed by Spacelord. The nine other players have their turns in by noon on Tuesday. When does host run?
In a perfect world, when all the active player's turns are in, the host should run. At the point the intital batch file will run Spacelord (provided it's been manually setup). It needs to be run before the host.exe file so that it can use the RST files. Then everything else is the normal process.
Regards,
][avok

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