Recorded Expert Level Games

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dotman
Posts: 11

Recorded Expert Level Games

Post#1 » Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:37 am

Hello,

In every other game I've played, from chess to the Age of Empires series, one of the fundamental ways to improve your play was to watch and analyze expert level games, the idea being that you can more easily see mistakes in your own game when you know what to look for.

VGAP doesn't seem to have any database of expert level games, despite the tremendous help this would give new players. I use VPA; it may be as simple as copying the last directory from a game, and loading it into VPA, which allows you to cycle through turns, although all of the RST files from a game would be useful too.

I think we should look at setting this up. There must be some experts out there who would share a game or two (maybe even comment/annotate it?).

I believe this would be the single most useful thing for VGA Planets players' improvement in the last decade.

-Dotman

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#2 » Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:08 am

Regarding VPA,
All you need is the vpa#.db.

Then that can be reviewed, cycling through the turns.
The bulk of the messages are deleted, but the pertinent data from
turn to turn, is visable including the vcrs.

Regarding compiling expert level game databases,
Some major problems:
#1: What defines an expert?
What criteria?

#2: Willingness of players to share their game data.
Some players hold their tactics/strategies close to their vest.

#3: Total volume of files per game.
A vpa#.db is a single file and easily worked with...11 vpa#.db's per game.
Including RSTs:
100 turn game totals 1111 files...1100 RSTs and 11 vpa#.dbs.

I agree that this is a good idea, I'm just pointing out some obstacles.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Havok
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Re: Recorded Expert Level Games

Post#3 » Sun Jul 22, 2007 1:10 pm

dotman wrote:Hello,

In every other game I've played, from chess to the Age of Empires series, one of the fundamental ways to improve your play was to watch and analyze expert level games, the idea being that you can more easily see mistakes in your own game when you know what to look for.

VGAP doesn't seem to have any database of expert level games, despite the tremendous help this would give new players. I use VPA; it may be as simple as copying the last directory from a game, and loading it into VPA, which allows you to cycle through turns, although all of the RST files from a game would be useful too.

I think we should look at setting this up. There must be some experts out there who would share a game or two (maybe even comment/annotate it?).

I believe this would be the single most useful thing for VGA Planets players' improvement in the last decade.

-Dotman
There's a program called the VP Movie Maker by William Barath that can record an entire game.

I've got the last beta edition he made, but am unable to register it so it's a bit crippled.

Image
Regards,
][avok

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#4 » Sun Jul 22, 2007 1:29 pm

Havok,

How is VPM crippled?

Also,
A host can run VPA in batch mode along with the switch to leave the
RSTs in place and make a vpa#.db for each race that includes data
from all races in each vpa#.db. Then with VPA, the entire game could
be viewed.

IMO, such a setup should require permission of the players.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Havok
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Post#5 » Sun Jul 22, 2007 1:51 pm

B A N E wrote:Havok,

How is VPM crippled?

Also,
A host can run VPA in batch mode along with the switch to leave the
RSTs in place and make a vpa#.db for each race that includes data
from all races in each vpa#.db. Then with VPA, the entire game could
be viewed.

IMO, such a setup should require permission of the players.
I'd have to find the email from the author. He lost everything while the last beta was being worked on and that's why development stopped on this program.
Regards,
][avok

dotman
Posts: 11

Post#6 » Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:10 pm

B A N E wrote:Regarding VPA,
All you need is the vpa#.db.
Excellent.

Regarding some of the points you make:
B A N E wrote: Regarding compiling expert level game databases,
Some major problems:
#1: What defines an expert?
What criteria?
I would say the community decides... but as long as the player is better than you are, in some facet of the game, there would be something you could learn.
B A N E wrote: #2: Willingness of players to share their game data.
Some players hold their tactics/strategies close to their vest.
That's true. I like to think there'd be some players out there who would annotate and make available their gamesl; there have been in all other games that I know of.
B A N E wrote: #3: Total volume of files per game.
A vpa#.db is a single file and easily worked with...11 vpa#.db's per game.
Including RSTs:
100 turn game totals 1111 files...1100 RSTs and 11 vpa#.dbs.
That's a lot of files. I would say that, since the vpa db file contains the relevant data, you don't need the RSTs.

Regarding VPM, and other solutions that allow you to see the -whole- game, these are neat, and maybe fun to 'watch' the game, but I think part of being able to learn from what experts do is watching how they respond without all of the information, or rather with the same information you would have if you were in their shoes.

I agree with BANE that the host should have permission from the players before recording their games. Would any player out there agree to have a game recorded, or present a past game for viewing with some notes on why they did what, etc etc?

Dotman

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warpedboard
Posts: 555

Post#7 » Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:17 pm

Havok wrote:
B A N E wrote:Havok,

How is VPM crippled?

Also,
A host can run VPA in batch mode along with the switch to leave the
RSTs in place and make a vpa#.db for each race that includes data
from all races in each vpa#.db. Then with VPA, the entire game could
be viewed.

IMO, such a setup should require permission of the players.
I'd have to find the email from the author. He lost everything while the last beta was being worked on and that's why development stopped on this program.
FWIW, I'm working on a "new" version of this... I've got the data collection part in place (it's beta-testing w/ the AoA2 game); it's the display part that I'm working on now (y'know... the hard part :lol: )

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#8 » Sun Jul 22, 2007 5:11 pm

=P~
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Mika
Posts: 739
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Re: Recorded Expert Level Games

Post#9 » Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:00 am

I don't use VPA (I prefer Echoview) but I could also provide you with a few games. Sure, saying something here must mean that I think I'm a good player but... well... I've always been somewhat arrogant ;)

But as said I could only provide the EV data or the last RST. What I can offer too is that you have a look over it and if there are any questions (why building that... why doing that... etc) I'll be happy to explain it per mail.

Cheers
Mika
Oderint dum metuant.
---------------------------------------------
Bella gerant alii, tu, felix Austria, nube!

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Cherek
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Post#10 » Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:39 am

B A N E wrote:Regarding VPA,
All you need is the vpa#.db.

Then that can be reviewed, cycling through the turns.
The bulk of the messages are deleted, but the pertinent data from
turn to turn, is visable including the vcrs.

Regarding compiling expert level game databases,
Some major problems:
#1: What defines an expert?
What criteria?

#2: Willingness of players to share their game data.
Some players hold their tactics/strategies close to their vest.

#3: Total volume of files per game.
A vpa#.db is a single file and easily worked with...11 vpa#.db's per game.
Including RSTs:
100 turn game totals 1111 files...1100 RSTs and 11 vpa#.dbs.

I agree that this is a good idea, I'm just pointing out some obstacles.
#1 a. How will player level be determined when a player plays at multiple sites? (Like in the VGA Planets ladder maybe?)
#1 b. How will the player level be determined when you have some players who play a lot of games vs one who plays a couple of games (Just like chess).
#1 c. When a lower level player places higher than a higher level player (the lower level player finishes a game in 1st place and a higher level player finishes in 5th), does the lower level player get more points? (Again just like in chess.)

#4 Will the rating be on a volunteer basis or will it involve all players at the site? (I'll opt not to be in it.)
The line below is true.
The line above is false.

Cherek

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Mika
Posts: 739
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Post#11 » Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:52 am

B A N E wrote:#3: Total volume of files per game.
A vpa#.db is a single file and easily worked with...11 vpa#.db's per game.
Including RSTs:
100 turn game totals 1111 files...1100 RSTs and 11 vpa#.dbs.
I just had a look at my echoview data. The bell tolls for thee is currently at turn 64 and there is "only" one file per turn. But the files are easy to compress. All together they have 1.5mb (even tough the files get bigger with every turn - turn 2 has just 1kb and turn 64 already 52kb) but zipped (maximum compression available with winzip 10.0) it has only 350kb and every file has a compression of about 75% what is pretty fine.

I wouldn't even need the RSTs so if anyone uses Echoview that seems to be a very suitable way to look at every turn.

Mika
Oderint dum metuant.
---------------------------------------------
Bella gerant alii, tu, felix Austria, nube!

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wasp
Posts: 424

Post#12 » Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:15 am

Hi all

It's allways interesting to watch the game developing as in VPM, but that doesn't help in terms of what the experts do. Because you are only seeing little points moving and changing colors.

We don't know the battles, or the decisions made.

With the file vpa#.dat we have access to the whole game but the player must use VPA (unless the host does) and we should be able to see the turns for all the players, not one at the time.

Just my thoughts.

Ricardo

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#13 » Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:54 am

With vpa running in batch mode, host side, all player data is visible.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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wasp
Posts: 424

Post#14 » Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:02 pm

Great, what are we waiting for??

ricardo

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