PList

Here you can find, hints, strategies and other info for VGA Planets, PHost and it's many addon's and utilities.

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Tei
Posts: 602

PList

Post#1 » Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:14 am

I started a few PList games at Planetserver. The problem with Planetserver is that the PList 3.1 games are limited to Ensign Level. Of course starting as recruit I wasn't allowed in despite begging. The only way in is as a replacement.

I joined a game a few turns before the ship limit as the Rebels. Built a few Calamaris and battled a little bit with a Robot neighbor.

The Rebels are enhased over the normal Tims List. They have two HYP ships starting off, the Falcon and a medium transport. The Falcon has torps. I think this would be really useful when starting a game. One could rapidly expand to form a 350 ly permitor. The Med HYP transport has a 280 cargo capacity. They have a Medium carrier, GALLOFREE YARDS, that develops HYP at level 3. The rebels have ships that develop interesting abilities at higher levels. One clokes at level 4, one has gravitonic engines at level 3 and the fuel carrier has a glory device at level 4.

Unfortunately I didn't train any ships to the higher levels. The Borg won the game pretty early. The Rebels do seem like a fun race to play. They are very well balanced with good torp ships, light carriers, intermediate carriers although the strongest carriers seem weeker than the strongest of other races.

Second game is with the Privateers also as a replacement. PList really offers a smogasborg of ships to the robbing races since there are so many more useful ones that get build than the normal list. I have an Acadamy ship which trains faster than normal and is useful for crew exchange. There is a good ship for sweeping, an interesting heavy cruiser which clokes at level 4. There is a one engine Gravatronic ship a two engine and a 3 engine Gravatronic ship.

The ship list has just been reached in this game and I've strated robbing from the Borg.

My third game is starting from scratch as the Crystals. Unfortunately, Planetserver limits new players to Plist 2.4 which has the same basic ships as Plist 3.1 but no new abilities develop with experinece. Also the torps and beams are quite different than v 3.1.

I think Planetserver games use the Plist normal version. The planets don't fight wtih torps. Many game also use explore map.

One advantage of PList/Phost is that it allow ships to have more than 10 weapons. This permits a class of super ships plus the levels underneath them. This gives a lot more ships a purpose. Each race has 3 oer 4 levels of combat ships instead of only two or 3 in the normal ship list.

:wink: TBC

planetmaker
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Re: PList

Post#2 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:09 am

Hi,

taking advantage of this topic, I'd like to encourage others to share their experience, observations and criticism concerning plist here. PList is an on-going effort in balancing things - especially with the many new features which were introduced to phost in the last two years or so. And there probably will be quite soon a small get-together to discuss possible further development :).

To have quick glance, look at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Re ... list3.html e.g. for hulls http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Re ... lls31.html and http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Re ... ts-en.html for some general tips.
Tei wrote: I joined a game a few turns before the ship limit as the Rebels. Built a few Calamaris and battled a little bit with a Robot neighbor.

The Rebels are enhased over the normal Tims List. They have two HYP ships starting off, the Falcon and a medium transport. The Falcon has torps. I think this would be really useful when starting a game. One could rapidly
expand to form a 350 ly permitor. The Med HYP transport has a 280 cargo capacity. They have a Medium carrier, GALLOFREE YARDS, that develops HYP at level 3. The rebels have ships that develop interesting abilities at higher levels. One clokes at level 4, one has gravitonic engines at level 3 and the fuel carrier has a glory device at level 4.

Unfortunately I didn't train any ships to the higher levels. The Borg won the game pretty early. The Rebels do seem like a fun race to play. They are very well balanced with good torp ships, light carriers, intermediate carriers although the strongest carriers seem weeker than the strongest of other races.
In my experience it's the 4th strongest fighter carrier in the game (after DeathStar (Emp), Dragon (Cyl) and Atlantia (CoM), inferior to the two biggest Borg cubes (both torper), equiv. to Godzilla (Gorn) and B11 (Kli) and the Empire's 2nd best carrier, but stronger than some races best ships: Nova (Fed), D'D (Rom).
My third game is starting from scratch as the Crystals. Unfortunately, Planetserver limits new players to Plist 2.4 which has the same basic ships as Plist 3.1 but no new abilities develop with experinece. Also the torps and beams are quite different than v 3.1.
IMO, PList 3.1 makes you sometimes consider lower cost equipment while with plist 2.4 you always want top notch equipment :). So for me I just have to learn to consider especially other beams, too. Especially the trade-off between Inpotron (2nd best) and Multitraf (best) is interesting: Inpotrons are faster, thus ~10% better against fighters while Multitraf do more damage, thus better agains torp ships - and of course they sweep better.

After so many words, let me share my experience, too.

I just finished a game with plist 3.0 where I was Romulan. The Romulans there have a nice list with a small, cheap scout, which - when trained thoroughly - gains anticloak imunity, e.g. will not become decloaked by Constitutions (=Loki) and not trigger the high damage glories. Also they have two nice warbirds with advanced cloak, full weaponry at higher levels and where the smaller one gains the anti cloak imunity at the highest experience rating (very difficult to achieve). They also feature a nice cloakable medium frighter and a cloakable decent medium carrier.
In the beginning I battled the Empire. The war birds proved quite successful agains their carrieres, if intercept attack was used. The carrier was well suited to take down lone Draklors (=SSD). A specially equipped war bird with DeathRays and -torps (=beams/torps which ignore shields and only kill crew) gained me a Draklor and some of their smaller ships and probes.
Trained war birds also manage to take out fully equipped bases nicely without risks of a loss, so it paid off to have some trained versions around for the bases - untrained versions might loose to fully equiped bases. And two well trained war birds will even take out a DeathStar (IIRC Romulans are the torp race with fastest recharge and best accuracy, but highest training costs).

I think Planetserver games use the Plist normal version. The planets don't fight wtih torps. Many game also use explore map.
IIRC all plist games feature explore map. The ship list is always normal except in some user created games.

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Cherek
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Post#3 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:00 am

I can't offer any information, since in most of the PHost/PList 3.X games I've played in, I've had my arse handed to me on a platter by two or three players.
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Cherek

planetmaker
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Post#4 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:19 am

Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote:I can't offer any information, since in most of the PHost/PList 3.X games I've played in, I've had my arse handed to me on a platter by two or three players.
It's much more about economy than tlist ;) :O.
Winning is not a pre-requisite for good judgment, though.

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RealMurphy
Posts: 150

Post#5 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:05 pm

May I hijack this thread once more to ask this question: When I'm playing with a new ship list (Say: PList heavy) and I would like to simulate fights where everyone fights against everyone (for all ships which are available for two races) how shall I do that in a "batch" way?

Goal: All those results I would like to weigh against the amount of minerals spent on those ships to see which ships should be favourable.

Thanks

RM

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Cherek
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Post#6 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:13 pm

Are you talking about like a fleet battles or just different ships fighting one on one?
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Cherek

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Cherek
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Post#7 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:16 pm

Come to think about it, it doesn't matter to me since I use PlayVCR for viewer battle and simming.
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Cherek

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Cherek
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Post#8 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:29 pm

planetmaker wrote:
Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote:I can't offer any information, since in most of the PHost/PList 3.X games I've played in, I've had my arse handed to me on a platter by two or three players.
It's much more about economy than tlist ;) :O.
Winning is not a pre-requisite for good judgment, though.
That is true.

But I do need more practice with PList so that I can stop or at least put up a good fight against, a Fed/Romulan alliance, or a Tholian/Privateer alliance or a Gorn/Robot/Fed alliance before being wiped out before turn 50.
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Cherek

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RealMurphy
Posts: 150

Post#9 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:40 pm

Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote:Come to think about it, it doesn't matter to me since I use PlayVCR for viewer battle and simming.
Yes, like playvcr, but fully automatic. I.e. it will run 10000 fights between ship a1 vs. B1, then 10000 fights a1 vs b2 and so on. I just want the results no tedious manual work.

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Cherek
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Post#10 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:50 pm

I can't see how it can get any easier. You click on the game that has the custom ship list data, hit F4 and pick the ships you want to fight and then hit enter. Yes, you may have to change your weapons and engines (change tech 9 to tech 7) or adjust shield strenght or hull damage. But all in all, it is pretty simple.
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Cherek

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#11 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:29 pm

For me and PList, I like the economic side, I will say however
that Maelstrom's planets have torps is/was a bad idea.

I may email the Phost team with a suggestion of adding one more
pconfig option of "bases have torps" as opposed to all planets.

I like the different ships and demands imposed and I'd like a chance
to play a plist game again in the future...

I will say that I find some of the experience based enhancements
somewhat incoherent and would like to read/hear the reasoning
behind some of them.

One major problem I ran into (my POV) was the experience penalty
for transferring crews. This was a major hindrance to the pirate
since they regularly cough up their crews in towcapture and crewkill.

I would not want to make upgrading experience easy, but I don't think
the transfer penalty should be there.

If/when I play Plist again, it won't be pirates.
I'll stick to Gorn, Romulan or Klingon, they're just more my style.
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Your side,
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and the truth.

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Havok
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Planetary Torpedo's / Missles

Post#12 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:21 pm

B A N E wrote:For me and PList, I like the economic side, I will say however
that Maelstrom's planets have torps is/was a bad idea.
I have to disagree on your opinion of the planets w/ torps feature, etc. Maybe it wasn't good for Maelstrom, I don't know I didn't participate in the game.

However IMOP, a planet, especially a heavy populated one should be difficult to take. Inherently more difficult than even a Borg Cube or a Death Star. After all, it's a planet, not a ship. The races that build these ships, starbase's, battle platforms, etc. would (again IMOP) have a heck of a defense grid on the planet itself, (fighters, Beam Weapons (Ion Cannon) and Missile's / Rockets / Torpedo's whatever you want to call them) and that it should take either a fleet of capital ships to destroy that type of planet or a super weapon like the one on a Death Star type of battle station.

I would welcome that in the Tim version of the game to just as much as I like the way the fighters behave in FHost. All of those features should be built into the game.

I'm smelling a PHost game brewing.
Regards,
][avok

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#13 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:42 pm

I don't disagree with "in reality" planets could be inherently more
difficult.

BUT, the effect of planets have torps in pvcr is that only the big
torpers and the death star are any good at taking planets.
It's an issue of cost effectiveness.

Now, if additional defenses were heirachical and had to be
purchased, then it makes sense.
That's why I suggest altering it to Starbases have torps.

In Maelstrom, small colonies were spanking medium carriers.
(200 clans and less)
Medium colonies were capable of killing some heavier ones.
(200-2500 clans)
The problem was cost effectiveness.

ie: 100 clans, 57 defposts, cost 570$ and 57supps kills a carrier
costing thousands in minerals and cash?

Whereas, if torps were available to starbases only, then the player
would have to purchase that effectiveness.

A: Buy the base (402, 120, 340 (TDM) + 900$)
B: Buy the torp techs (from 0-4500$)
C: Buy the torpedoes (from 0-??? per torp)

Then it is a matter of cost effectiveness that isn't so skewed in
the favor of the defenders.

Considering that pvcr also allows planets to capture ships,
then a player could design his bases around capture as well.

Make sense?
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Hawkeye
Posts: 1029

Re: Planetary Torpedo's / Missles

Post#14 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:41 pm

Havok wrote:
B A N E wrote:For me and PList, I like the economic side, I will say however
that Maelstrom's planets have torps is/was a bad idea.
I have to disagree on your opinion of the planets w/ torps feature, etc. Maybe it wasn't good for Maelstrom, I don't know I didn't participate in the game.
I have to back Bane on this one - planets with torps become just too strong. I had a fully armed Carillon carrier (9 beams / 13 bays) taken out by a planet (no starbase) in Maelstrom, and we're not talking about a planet with 250+ defense posts either. I believe this one had only about 60 defense posts.... :(

I do agree that starbases however should be harder to take out, and I honestly believe the best way to do this is to increase the storage capacity for fighters. Somewhere between 80-120 would be good.

planetmaker
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Post#15 » Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:41 am

B A N E wrote:I don't disagree with "in reality" planets could be inherently more
difficult.

BUT, the effect of planets have torps in pvcr is that only the big
torpers and the death star are any good at taking planets.
It's an issue of cost effectiveness.

Now, if additional defenses were heirachical and had to be
purchased, then it makes sense.
That's why I suggest altering it to Starbases have torps.
While IMO a fully equiped base may kill even a DeathStar, I agree that cost effectiveness is not granted. I haven't really tried, (I will have to some time), but phost version 4.1 offers the possibility to modify the base stats, e.g. alter it's price tag and increase its fighter storage capability and maximum base defence. These options enabled will make the game incompatible to any client other than latest VPA or PCC, though. Given this, things might look differently as you'd have to purchase additional defence and you could make a base worth MUCH more and expensive, too. They're too cheap compared to their battle power even in a normal game, but they feature too few fighters to take fully advantage of their strength.

EDIT: broken syntax

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