Lack of PBP's

Here you can find, hints, strategies and other info for VGA Planets, PHost and it's many addon's and utilities.

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Gilgamesh
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Post#31 » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:28 pm

I'm not sure I understand the moral outrage over building a crap ship to (A) stop your enemy from building a good one (B) putting a cheap probe killer over your starbase and/or (C) setting yourself up with some "reserve" PBPs to grab a shipslot for a fully pimped-out battleship after the shiplimit hits.

The game allows it so it's not cheating. To me - it's just making the most of what the game offers. When you're the Klingon, you have to do that.
QI'DaS tuQ SoSlI'

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#32 » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:56 pm

the.Ant,

While looking through my VGAP archive, I came across an addon
by afaik, Donovan.

VPSHPLMT
It's a quota system based upon empire size (quick glance).

I'm forwarding to Havok for him to upload to the FTP area.
Here's the docfile, would you be willling to compare it with SOSS?
VGAPlanets Ship Limits Addon
By Morris Donovan 1999

1> Introduction.

One of the biggest problems when playing VGAPlanets is the ship limit of 500.
This tends to cause players to restrict their combat and movements in an
attempt to keep the maximum number of ships in their fleet. This has a
tendency to slow down and halt the game. Cloning of captured ships is
impossible as there are no slots left.

To place the emphasis back on capturing planets and therefore leading to a
definite winner, I have programmed an addon which restricts the number of
ships a player can build. Although in real terms there should be no
restrictions, this could be justified by saying empires only have enough
logistics to handle that many ships or air available is limited to planets
it can be gleamed from. None are real but who cares it is only a game and
playability is important.

The program determines the number of ships and planets a player or team owns
and then determines how many ships a player or team can build depending on the
configuration. If the player tries to build more than this number + 2 it
deletes the build instruction on the least populated planets.

2> Installation

Copy all file into your directory which holds host.exe program.
Run vpslcfg <path> to set up a game to use vpshplmt program.
This can be done at anytime in a game.

3> Configurating a game.

To setup a game to use vpshplmt program, run vpslcfg <path>.
eg vpslcfg game1
You then be prompted to answer a set of questions namely:
What Base Ship Number for each team?
What Number of Ship for each group of planets?
How many planets constitutes a group of planets?
How many teams in the game(2-11)?
What team does Fed belong to?
What team does Lizard belong to?
What team does Bird belong to?
What team does Fascist belong to?
What team does Privateer belong to?
What team does Cyborg belong to?
What team does Crystalline belong to?
What team does Empire belong to?
What team does Robots belong to?
What team does Rebel belong to?
What team does Colonies belong to?

If you select 11 teams you will not be prompted about which team each
player belongs to.

The formula for the ship limits(SL) of each team(player) is calculated by
Base Ship Number(BSN) plus Number of owned planets(O) by ships per group
(S) divided by Planets per group(P).

SL=BSN + O * S/P;

EG.
What Base Ship Number for each team? 20
What Number of Ship for each group of planets? 2
How many planets constitutes a group of planets? 3
How many teams in the game(2-11)? 11

Ship Limit= 20 + O * 2/3;
If number of planets was 36 then SL = 20+ 36 *2/3 = 20 + 72/3 = 44;
If number of planets was 96 then SL = 20+ 96 *2/3 = 20 + 192/3 = 84;

If the base number is set very high it won't affect the game play
as this number is used most while reaching the limit of 500. Once near
500 it gets reduced to keep the total ship limits of all players to 500.

The configuration is saved and a line added to auxhost1.ini and
auxhost2.ini files in the directory entered when running the configuration
file. The files should have the lines:-
"vpshplmt 1 <path>" added to auxhost1.ini and
"vpshplmt 2 <path>" added to auxhost2.ini.

If configuration is run a second time it will not add or modify these
lines. So do not copy between directories.

4> What happens during host.

When host is run orders are loaded and then vpshplmt determines each
player's number of owned planets and ships and allowable builds.
If the allowable builds +2 is less than the number of ships being built
it deletes the build order of ships at the starbases with the least
number of colonists by changing the hull number to 0 and sending a host
message to say which starbase lost its ship build.

During these calculations if the total number of all players ship limits
is over 500 then each player(team) ship limit is reduced by 1 until they
are equal or less than 500.

At the end of host the program determines the ship limit of each player
and advises each player of their and all other players number of owned
planets, ships, ship limit and allowable builds.

5. Comments.

These programs are freeware and no responsibilty for any problems caused
by their use can be attributed to the programmer.

I am however willing to modifiy the program to fix any bugs or add any
additional functionality.

Any comments/suggestions/bugs can be sent to me by email at
mdonovan@dyson.brisnet.org.au

Morris Donovan. 30/1/1999.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Hawkeye
Posts: 1030

Post#33 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:38 am

Gilgamesh wrote:I'm not sure I understand the moral outrage over building a crap ship to (A) stop your enemy from building a good one (B) putting a cheap probe killer over your starbase and/or (C) setting yourself up with some "reserve" PBPs to grab a shipslot for a fully pimped-out battleship after the shiplimit hits.

The game allows it so it's not cheating. To me - it's just making the most of what the game offers. When you're the Klingon, you have to do that.

Yeah I'm with you on this one Gil. As Black Knight would say, "It's only an unfair advantage if it's not yours".

Speaking of BK, I haven't seen him around here ever since he was my cluster buddy in Arena :D

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the.Ant
Posts: 283

Post#34 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:48 am

Gilgamesh wrote: The game allows it so it's not cheating. To me - it's just making the most of what the game offers. When you're the Klingon, you have to do that.
I'm with you here, I'm not saying that it's cheating, however, I only do it because I fear others might do it as well. Sometimes I build ships I don't really feel like building, not to waste the ship slot. I think that's not objectionable because it is within the rules of the game.

However, in a game where this mechanism is not necessary it really changes the atmosphere of the game in a positive way. For example in those SOSS games everyone is assigned a number of shipslots (depending on the number of planets you hold), and you don't have to rush as much to pump out ships because noone can occupy your shipslots. Furthermore, if you can afford to wait another turn to build, because the shipslot will not be gone, everyone tends to build better equipped ships. IIRC I never hit the shiplimit in this game, despite always building a ship when I wanted to.

On the one hand it makes the game more relaxed (because you can focus on the real thing instead of worrying about pbp and ship slots), on the other hand it makes the game more tactical because you really have to defeat your enemy through strength and superiority, not by preventing him to build more ships.

Wasn't it here on CM that in a team game one team gained the upper hand because they let one team member make all the kills, he build only cheap ships and thereby through time they just had the majority of the ship slots?

I think that's not cheating, it's even quite witty, but IMHO it also misses the point.

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Six_Of_One
Posts: 1078
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Post#35 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:33 am

I still think its hysteria about nothing.
Protected ship slots look after the weak economist
With a 500 ship limit that 45 ship slots each, protect mine as the Borg and who can stand against me ???

Why should someone else be able to tell me i have to make use of every planet in my area. I am notorious for under-using planets and leaving some untouched......... but thats the way i like to play

I dont want to play planets if i have to subscribe to someone elses view of how it should be played... we are not robots or clones, its the differences in ppl that make the game so enjoyable.

And correct me if i am wrong... but...
if i build 50 tech 1 freighters, what can i do with them..... nothing
I have to recycle 20 to get 20 PBP's, that frees up 20 ship slots and once my PBP's are used, someone else gets a shot at building.
And if i am attacked, they cant fight and the attacker gets 50 PBP's and 50 slots appear.

My cubes dont care if they devour your freighters as they race through your space, this tactic only makes me stronger.

Like i said, i fail to see the problem, and i know the sky isnt falling.
Finally isnt there an addon or something that allows for 1000 ships???
"Just because you can do a thing,
Doesn't mean you should."

Paarthurnax the Dragon
Elder Scrolls-Skyrim

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Vodenkugels
Posts: 150

Post#36 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:52 am

As a newbie I'd have to say I don't see the outrage in stuffin the Q. If you want to load up on junk be my guest. Nothing more satisfying that discovering a planet with 20 probes to be massacred by a lowly exploring falcon etc. As the bots i used lowlevel q tankers for fighter storage. Several with 120 fighters makes for quick reloads or the occasional sacrificial lamb. as Rebels-falcons to RGA are invaluable.....

The game is about economy- I f you don't have it- your demise is inevitable. And all u could accomplish is a little delay in the turn of events.
I have yet to have it appear to have a effect on the overall outcome.

But hey I'm the new guy remember...........
Practice Hard Fight Easy and WIN
Practice Easy Fight Hard and DIE

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Vodenkugels
Posts: 150

Post#37 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:55 am

Oh Yeah --the reason I logged in......

I've captured ships /destroyed ships/( all ship to ship) and yet have no PBP's. I'm checking to seee if I've reached 20 and recycled but i don't think so. Several other players have accumulated some, but not many

Still investigating?????

GREAT SITE AND A GREAT GAME
Practice Hard Fight Easy and WIN
Practice Easy Fight Hard and DIE

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#38 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:33 am

vodenkugels,
Has the 500 ship limit been reached?

to the rest,
cheating? Never said it was.
Cheesy and inferior is what I consider the PBP batteries and do
nothing build strategy.

hysteria? I've seen no hysteria.

It's a matter of playstyle.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Captain Blood
Posts: 294

Post#39 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:44 am

the.Ant wrote: However, in a game where this mechanism is not necessary it really changes the atmosphere of the game in a positive way. For example in those SOSS games everyone is assigned a number of shipslots (depending on the number of planets you hold), and you don't have to rush as much to pump out ships because noone can occupy your shipslots. Furthermore, if you can afford to wait another turn to build, because the shipslot will not be gone, everyone tends to build better equipped ships. IIRC I never hit the shiplimit in this game, despite always building a ship when I wanted to.

On the one hand it makes the game more relaxed (because you can focus on the real thing instead of worrying about pbp and ship slots), on the other hand it makes the game more tactical because you really have to defeat your enemy through strength and superiority, not by preventing him to build more ships.
Hmm - when the above kind of games become relaxing it must be due to the players.

To me it looks like a game where the players have unlimited number of resources. If a ship blow up build a new one and send it forward. Depending on the set up such a game might go on for a very long time.

Also if two players go against one he is dead since he have no way of defeating two players with half the number of ships. Since the enemy ships returns in a 1-1 ratio if he blows them up.

It look to me like a more diplomatic than tactical challenging game.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It appears that there are some confusion about how Q-stuffing happens and why.

The reason to build SDSF have to do with "pushing the economy". As a Robot you only want to build Golems (Autonomas (Inst)). once the que have been reached. Catpaws and LDSF are better build for PBP.

A golem with warp 1 engines cost app 5500 MC + a starbase.

A golem with warp 9 engines cost app 5500 + 8000 + a starbase. A few of those might be nice to have however.

Since your economy can not afford to build this on all planets it might be usefull to slow down the que by putting in a few bases building SDSF`s.

Unless you have a nice row of Golems in line in the que it do not make sence to recycle the SDSF´s immediate. Since if you do, you will sacrifice the golems that might have been build.

This is how Q-stuffing happens.

Also if your fleet suddenly is superior compared to others due to your ability to press your economy building ships. It might be tempting not to recycle those SDSF´s at all. Also you might considder building more golems with warp 9 engines.

However if you are up against players who build as fast and large as yourself it might make sence to recycle those SDSF immediate. Since it will cost them an equal amount of large ships. (economical pressure).

In a situation where you are fighting multiple enemies who have a superior number of ships/planets like 3 to 1. Then you in no way wants them to build in a 3 to 1 ratio. You want to fight them and build for PBP. If you can find a way to gain more PBP than them you might likely win this battle, if not defeat is an option.

Like it or not but the one who controlls the que is most likely the player in control of the game. There is a lot of tactics involved in this "Q-stuffing". It all comes back to how you fight your enemies and manage the economy of your empire. How the que should be played all depends on the current strategical/tactical situation as well as race.

The best way to counter "Q-stuffing" is to put a high economical and military pressure on the player. If it succeds he will not be able to "Q-stuff". Of course you might then be the player stuffing the Q. :)
Regards,

Captain Blood

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hennef
Posts: 2250

Post#40 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:18 am

thats how it is! well said.
have fun!

hennef

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Havok
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Post#41 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:19 am

Well, in case anyone has forgotten the sites view, and my view on queue stuffing, you can re-read this thread from April 2007.

viewtopic.php?t=2411

I think it was BANE that said it best somewhere in the thread... If you have to stuff the queue to win the game, you don't know how to play VGAP.
Regards,
][avok

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hennef
Posts: 2250

Post#42 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:24 am

Havok wrote:Well, in case anyone has forgotten the sites view, and my view on queue stuffing, you can re-read this thread from April 2007.

viewtopic.php?t=2411

I think it was BANE that said it best somewhere in the thread... If you have to stuff the queue to win the game, you don't know how to play VGAP.
still do not agree to that statement.

its a game of economy.

economy is key to victory. everything else comes second.

but when it gets rough, then the cue is a strong instrument to gain advantage over your enemy.

everything else is just understanding of game mechanics.
have fun!

hennef

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Havok
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Post#43 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:26 am

The idea is the play the game, not the short comings of the system itself. Queue stuffing is the later.
Regards,
][avok

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Shardin5
Posts: 3808

Post#44 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:29 am

Q stuffing is really only in a REAL issue, when you have players, that form teams, and hide large stacks of ships tucked away in a corner, or behind Mass MF's and such. Players that play this team style of play normally ruin a game.

Filling slots just to fill the slot so somebody else can't have it, is its OWN reward. No reason to reward recycling a ship with PBP's, it is no different than colonizing a ship. In the old days, colonizing gave you PBP's, it was considered, a bad thing, and so you no longer recieve, PBP's for it, THINGS CHANGE, and this is one of those things that need to be fixed. If you econ and tactics drive you to "TRY" and fill the slots go for it.

Filling the ship slot is its own reward, you built a ship with whose only purpose is to fill a slot, no mission, no purpose than to fill a slot, and filling the slot is the reward. Recycle the ship, open a slot, as you feel fit, its just that easy. Granted Phost solves the issue real easy with ACTIVITY, for PBP's.
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The US Marines don't have that problem.
President Ronald Reagan

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#45 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:37 am

Rhetorical ?
I wonder how many players would use the junk sdsf/sm.tran
build if there was no PBP for recycle.

As for "queue managing winning the game" ...guffaw.

Players that have better tactics, strategy, logistics and diplomacy win.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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