Lack of PBP's

Here you can find, hints, strategies and other info for VGA Planets, PHost and it's many addon's and utilities.

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hennef
Posts: 2250

Post#46 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:08 pm

B A N E wrote:Rhetorical ?
I wonder how many players would use the junk sdsf/sm.tran
build if there was no PBP for recycle.

As for "queue managing winning the game" ...guffaw.

Players that have better tactics, strategy, logistics and diplomacy win.
I build sdsf whenever a base can not build anything more useful and unless there is not another cheaper ship to build. Because a ship needs to be built! Every turn! On every base. It is a matter of efficiency.

And normally there are not many sdsf built in my concepts of play, but sometimes there is a longer shortcut of resources (that is always false planning) and then several sdsf may be built at the same planet. Most of the time it is just a shortcut of one turn until enough resources are delivered to engage full production again.

Those sdsf are used when needed or they are recycled when needed. All depends on the situation, and there are many, as you can read in Captain Bloods abstract.

So maybe I am not seeing the true essence of the game.... hidden somewhere behind not building sdsf....
have fun!

hennef

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Gilgamesh
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Post#47 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:17 pm

Havok wrote:Well, in case anyone has forgotten the sites view, and

I think it was BANE that said it best somewhere in the thread... If you have to stuff the queue to win the game, you don't know how to play VGAP.
The queue is an artificial aspect of planets. In a real war there's no limit on how many ships you or your opponent builds. If there was, you can bet there would be the same queue stuffing tactics in use because it works to your advantage to do so within the rules of the game. Personally I do it if there is nothing else I can build at that base on that turn. I may be kidding myself, but I do feel like I know how to play VGAP.
QI'DaS tuQ SoSlI'

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Hawkeye
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Post#48 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:28 pm

Six_Of_One wrote:And correct me if i am wrong... but...
if i build 50 tech 1 freighters, what can i do with them..... nothing
I have to recycle 20 to get 20 PBP's, that frees up 20 ship slots and once my PBP's are used, someone else gets a shot at building.
And if i am attacked, they cant fight and the attacker gets 50 PBP's and 50 slots appear.
I too share this point of view - if I build a ship, and then recycle it the next turn to gain the PBP, is this regarded as queue stuffing? And would this get me booted from the game? ][avok?

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Havok
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Post#49 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:58 pm

hennef wrote: I build sdsf whenever a base can not build anything more useful and unless there is not another cheaper ship to build. Because a ship needs to be built! Every turn! On every base. It is a matter of efficiency.

And normally there are not many sdsf built in my concepts of play, but sometimes there is a longer shortcut of resources (that is always false planning) and then several sdsf may be built at the same planet. Most of the time it is just a shortcut of one turn until enough resources are delivered to engage full production again.

Those sdsf are used when needed or they are recycled when needed. All depends on the situation, and there are many, as you can read in Captain Bloods abstract.

So maybe I am not seeing the true essence of the game.... hidden somewhere behind not building sdsf....
Hennef,

If "for example" you are building extra SDSF's just to horde them because you feel you have to build something at each starbase each turn, you're going to end up with 30, 40 or 50 of them etc., and that's queue stuffing.
Gilgamesh wrote: The queue is an artificial aspect of planets. In a real war there's no limit on how many ships you or your opponent builds. If there was, you can bet there would be the same queue stuffing tactics in use because it works to your advantage to do so within the rules of the game. Personally I do it if there is nothing else I can build at that base on that turn. I may be kidding myself, but I do feel like I know how to play VGAP.
Gil,

No one is saying you can't play the game. My point is, with the 500 ship limit, queue stuffing does nothing but hurt the other players in the game. Some could argue that it's a military tactic, however I disagree in this case. In my opinion it's a cheap tactic that takes advantage of the design limitations of VGAP, and I ask players here not to do it. If there was no ship limit, it wouldn't really be an issue.
Hawkeye wrote: I too share this point of view - if I build a ship, and then recycle it the next turn to gain the PBP, is this regarded as queue stuffing? And would this get me booted from the game? ][avok?
Hawkeye,

I've only removed 1 person for queue stuffing in the 3+ years I've been hosting. That only happened after multiple warnings that were disregarded. The player in question had over 200 ships relatively early in a game.
Regards,
][avok

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Cardno
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Post#50 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:05 pm

I hope that assessment of stuffing the queue doesn't apply to building falcons.

I build starbases and i build falcons - i just can't get enough of them. 10 falcons carry as much cargo as an LDSF and cost the same amount of fuel to go 450 lys - but do it a LOT quicker. Of course - there is the issue of getting them back again - but i just generally don't. Most of them stay where they went having fun with rgaing.

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Havok
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Post#51 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:06 pm

Cardno wrote:I hope that assessment of stuffing the queue doesn't apply to building falcons.

I build starbases and i build falcons - i just can't get enough of them. 10 falcons carry as much cargo as an LDSF and cost the same amount of fuel to go 450 lys - but do it a LOT quicker. Of course - there is the issue of getting them back again - but i just generally don't. Most of them stay where they went having fun with rgaing.
It doesn't because those ships are in use. Not sitting at the space station with tech 1 engines holding up a slot.
Regards,
][avok

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Gilgamesh
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Post#52 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:20 pm

I'll build a cheap SDSF when I can't build anything else in a couple of scenarios.

1 - I recycle it next turn for the PBP. As much as the 500 ship limit is an artificial limit it's a fact of the game. If you don't make the most of it someone else will.

2 - I hang on to it and recycle it when I need that last PBP to grab a slot for a Vickie. Again, if I don't use that slot my enemy will.

I'm not sure how this hurts other players in the game beyond the fact that it's a war game and you are supposed to hurt the other guy. Nor do I see how it's any more cheesy than putting a crap engine on a popper that's just going to sit at a base waiting for an unsuspecting cloaker.

If this were more realistic I'd put cloaking devices on everything I have including poppers, but it's not realistic, there are artificial boundaries and constraints, and the only smart thing is to use them as best you can, because you know someone else will....

Rant over... :upset:
QI'DaS tuQ SoSlI'

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Cardno
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Post#53 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:21 pm

I have a lot of respect for the falcon. It's a great ship. I'm always wary of risking one in borg territory too early in the game though. Losing one to the borg would be a disaster...

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#54 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:46 pm

Ok, read this excerpt... do you agree with Timo?
http://www.circus-maximus.com/timostop10.htm
11. The OK System

This awesome tactic is only valid for host 3.22.008 and older. Tim fixed this loophole in host version 3.22.009. Well, Tim called it a loophole - I called it the OK system! Here's the deal:

Based on the fact that you get 1 PBP for every ship you capture, you can setup an enormous PBP producing system: the OK system!
All you need is:
A. two ships with X-ray lasers (one for you and one for your ally) and
B. a bunch of outdated freighters.
Put the two capital ships 1 turn flying from each other - for example in orbit of two planets.
You let your freighters fly from one planet to the other to be captured by the ship of your ally, and your ally sends them back the next turn.
That's about it. For every freighter you capture you get 1 PBP. So if you've got for example an OK system with 10 freighters flying in two groups of 5 ships each, each participating player will get 5 free PBPs every turn. You are guaranteed to have a PBP boost every turn right in time for the second build phase. Nice touch eh?Additional
Just because something is possible, doesn't make it sporting.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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hennef
Posts: 2250

Post#55 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:57 pm

Havok wrote:
hennef wrote: I build sdsf whenever a base can not build anything more useful and unless there is not another cheaper ship to build. Because a ship needs to be built! Every turn! On every base. It is a matter of efficiency.

And normally there are not many sdsf built in my concepts of play, but sometimes there is a longer shortcut of resources (that is always false planning) and then several sdsf may be built at the same planet. Most of the time it is just a shortcut of one turn until enough resources are delivered to engage full production again.

Those sdsf are used when needed or they are recycled when needed. All depends on the situation, and there are many, as you can read in Captain Bloods abstract.

So maybe I am not seeing the true essence of the game.... hidden somewhere behind not building sdsf....
Hennef,

If "for example" you are building extra SDSF's just to horde them because you feel you have to build something at each starbase each turn, you're going to end up with 30, 40 or 50 of them etc., and that's queue stuffing.
ok, so its a matter of numbers? which number is queue stuffing, which is "normal" use. I normally dont end up with 50 sdsf, but it could be 20. Right now i have 3 games open and a total of 2 sdsf. the one i am playing as empire and the empire builds probes instead. only if i would lack those 25moly i would still build a sdsf. the other game i am klingon and managed to build as many poppers as possible. wasting loads of minerals of course. third game is borg.... self explaining i would say :D

but if i was bird? or crystal? what should i build when you lack money?

well.... nuff said.... need to do my turns.
have fun!

hennef

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#56 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:18 pm

numbers:
50 per player = 550 shipslots.
20 per player = 220 shipslots.
10 per player = 110 shipslots.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Gilgamesh
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Post#57 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:29 pm

B A N E wrote:Ok, read this excerpt... do you agree with Timo?
http://www.circus-maximus.com/timostop10.htm

Just because something is possible, doesn't make it sporting.
Except - it's not possible anymore. Building a SDSF is.
QI'DaS tuQ SoSlI'

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Cardno
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Post#58 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:53 pm

This is an interesting discussion.

I can see both sides of the 'queue stuffing' argument. I can't say i wouldn't recyle the odd ship to get an extra point so i can build something in an area about to be attacked by a nasty biocide or something. On the other hand, it does buggar up the game if someone does it to an extreme end. Although, going and killing them is always a good option.

I'm interested to know if there are other 'allowable' actions etc in the game which ppl feel should not be done / allowed?

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#59 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:55 pm

Most of those got weeded out a long time ago...
:lol:
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Cardno
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Post#60 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:00 pm

B A N E wrote:Most of those got weeded out a long time ago...
:lol:
But.....you are still here... :lol:

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