When to build your first Warship.

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Gavan
Posts: 879

When to build your first Warship.

Post#1 » Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:19 am

I am still in the early stages of a new game and I am thinking about building my first warship of the game. (not counting dual use / special ships like a cobal)

When does everyone else build their first warship of a game? (When they see their first enemy race or when they get to a specific turn number or ... )
Just cause I am paranoid does not mean they are not out to get me.

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Hawkeye
Posts: 1029

Post#2 » Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:21 am

This really depends on a number of elements to the game:

Race choice
Cluster size
Starting config / addons
Map shape

Also how do you define warship? Does a B200 probe with x-ray lasers count?

As the borg, rapid expansion and assimilation are vital, so your first ship build should be a probe, whereas the xtals need to get their economy cranked, and should look to freighters first and foremost to move colonists and minerals. Privs need to expand rapidly using the grav-equipped ships, so an early warship build is expected.

For me, first priority is usually to get the economy cranked to the point where it is self-sustaining, after which it will depend on the race I'm playing as to wether I persue the production of warships or additional bases. Quite often an early Resolute can be dispatched to capture wayward LDSFs, and generally throw a neighbour onto the back-foot.

There's nothing worse than going too hard out at the start, only to find you've fully depleted a certain mineral or cash, and then having to send out LDSFs to hen-peck barren planets for small scraps while your starbase produces small freighters, or scouts with tech 4 engines.

Games which start everyone off in an economically vunerable state (low money and colonists) will generally have players concentrating less on building warships and more on economics, and its therefore usually quite safe to produce 4-5 LDSFs plus a few scouts initially before building the big guns. Generally I'll see my first warships somewhere around turns 7-10.

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Logain
Posts: 720

Post#3 » Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:29 am

If there are ships like the Resolute BattleCruiser or Nebula Cruiser with a big cargo capacity in my ship list, I will build several of those early and send them to expand in force as quickly as possible. That gives me enough firepower at the fringes of my territory to deal with early threats (or become one :) ). Those are followed by LDSFs loaded with clans.

I also build a lot of MDSFs to gather minerals and distribute clans from central hubs. They can handle the mineral production of most planets and they sip gas. Plus, they aren't as great a loss if a cloaked enemy snipes one every now and then.

Once that network is established to keep the flow of minerals and cash moving, I shift production to the heavy ships. I hope to start building big guns by turn 12-15+. Earlier if I find a neighbor close by.

If there isn't a good mid-weight ship on the list, I push the economy hard to get things moving and heavy warship production as early as possible.

Not much more frustrating than watching an enemy close in when you have nothing to counter them with... :shock:

I don't like waiting until I see my first race. I'd rather play my game plan and have the threat to send their direction. Sometimes you won't see that threat until they want you to. :wink:

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Gilgamesh
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Post#4 » Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:53 am

Playing the Klingons, I usually build two Coldpains in the first two turns and send them out looking for freighters to snatch and homeworlds to pillage. After that I get on to the freighters.
QI'DaS tuQ SoSlI'

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Shardin5
Posts: 3808

Post#5 » Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:48 pm

It really depends on Race, and what you consider a warship.
As a Tholian I build Ruby's real early, some consider it a armed Frieghter and some like me consider it a Warship, for both early and late game.
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The US Marines don't have that problem.
President Ronald Reagan

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Hawkeye
Posts: 1029

Post#6 » Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:48 pm

Logain wrote:I also build a lot of MDSFs to gather minerals and distribute clans from central hubs.
As a rule I never build these as the cargo capacity is far too small. Better to invest the engine into a LDSF which can be sent on extended expansion missions, or later in the game, carry enough minerals to build a new starbase.

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Gilgamesh
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Post#7 » Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:25 pm

I build MDSFs. A couple of them can keep a base fairly well supplied from a small cluster.
QI'DaS tuQ SoSlI'

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Cardno
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Post#8 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:25 am

Get taxes from natives - I always build LDSF's.

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#9 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:12 am

Guns & Butter dilemma.

When is a situational answer.

You have to balance the gain vs the loss.
If you build warships early and don't get the early kill, then you are
many steps behind your potential enemies that built econ first.

If you build your econ and not your warships, a savvy raider can come
in and with a bit of luck snag your freight fleet and it is effectively over.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Logain
Posts: 720

Post#10 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:33 pm

That's why I love this game :D

- 11 races with different racial abilities
- 11 players with different experience, personalities, etc.
- Different maps and starting options.

No two games are ever the same :lol:

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Captain Blood
Posts: 294

Post#11 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:45 pm

Considder upgrading to LDSF, that give a much faster build up. A MDSF will need to return after having vicited one or two planets. The LDSF can build up a lot more witout going back and take advantage of natives right away.

Only with Starbase+ MDSF can be really usefull.

Building some medium torpedo ships early with mark 4 is usefull to start mining your area. To keep eventual cloakers away and as a cloaker to send to enemy territory. Remember x-ray beams to capture freighters on the ship to enemy territory. Disrupter is better in some ways, but duranium is usually short to start with and the upgrade of the base cost too.

As someone mentioned earlier what to build will all depend on race, setup, planets found and who you are neighbouring still a mix of the above ships is newer completely mistaken.
Regards,

Captain Blood

Zeus
Posts: 34

Post#12 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:17 pm

I also think It depends of the race and game settings.

Usually I always build a LDSF as first ship, because in a usual game, 60% of the planets has natives. So the chance that the starting ships will find at least one native planet in his first turn is really good.

If i can unload 1100-1200 clans at turn 3, I've a higher total income till the ship limit hits as a player which builds an small warship for example.

Currently I play the Robots first time .. here you need a lot of Duranium .. which makes it necessary to build some MDSF's instead LDSF's .. if i play the Rebels, i never ever build MDSF's

I usually do not build mark 4 torps (if, then they scoop up minefields which was laid by a mark-7/8 ship) because that is really a big waste of minerals imho .. better mark-7 and in a mineral poor game, only mark-8.

First big warship .. depends, but usually, I rise the tech levels which are needed to build the big ship at turn 1 and as Rebel, I build an first Rush usually at turn 5 or 6.

Rebel:
Turn 1: LDSF
Turn 2: If the two start ships found two native worlds, another LDSF, else Falcon
Turn 3: if turn 2 was LDSF then Falcon and via versa.
Turn 4: Falcon
Turn 5: Tranquility as minelayer and scout (390 cargo)
Turn 6: Rush .. he can start to build fighter
..
.. Eco mode .. save minerals for a first Merlin
..
Turn 10: Merlin should be build now, a few LDSF, Tranquis and Falcons too and i start to build any turn a Rush ... usually i try to have one Rush per turn if the ship limit hits .. means 25 Rushes if the ship limit hits at turn 25.

But Rebels are easy at this point, there are only a handfull ships worth to build:
LDSF, Falcon, Tranquility, Rush, Merlin and Refinery Ship.

Most guides tells to build Geminis for building fighters .. nope, the Rush has 390 cargo, no need to build such crap ships only for building fighters .. or they mean you should build Patriots .. only waste of minerals and base slots in my opinion. If you can not build a Rush, build a LDSF or Tranqui, if you can not build a LDSF or Tranquility (mark-7 minimum), build a Falcon. More as simple.

Harry

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Hawkeye
Posts: 1029

Post#13 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:56 pm

I go along with your "build useful ships" strategy, but would note a few things:

Zeus wrote: Currently I play the Robots first time .. here you need a lot of Duranium .. which makes it necessary to build some MDSF's instead LDSF's .. if i play the Rebels, i never ever build MDSF's
I find the Robots to be one of the most balanced races in the game when it comes to minerals. Sure they need about 500+ KT of duranium for the Golems, but the Automa and Instrumentalities are far less in their requirements, and considering that each fighter requires 2 Mol and 3 Tri, a loaded Golem with 150 fighters will need 300 mol and 450 Tri which tends to balance out the large duranium investment in the hull. When playing other races I tend to find I have large stockpiles of duranium.

Zeus wrote:
I usually do not build mark 4 torps (if, then they scoop up minefields which was laid by a mark-7/8 ship) because that is really a big waste of minerals imho .. better mark-7 and in a mineral poor game, only mark-8.
Mark 4's can be really useful for minefield production when bulldozing a player that has just quit the game - usually this is around turns 40 to 70 when their mineral mines have been running for a long period. At this stage of the game minerals are generally in vast supply because the ship queue has been hit for the last 10-40 turns, however credits have gone towards beefing up base defences / tech levels etc. Ships equipped with M4's can make good use of those planets with large minerals and low cash. If there happens to be large cash quantities floating about, then these should go towards a new starbase.

Also consider that at the start of the game, you're not going to be kicking out Darkwings and Novas, but smaller torp ships like the Tranquility and LCC. It takes an additional 1800MC to get the base up to torp tech level 8, money that is much better spent on better engines for the freighters etc. In a nutshell, Mark 4's do have a deserving role in the game and shouldn't be overlooked, especially on the smaller cloaking torp ships.

Hawkeye :)

Zeus
Posts: 34

Post#14 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:13 pm

I find the Robots to be one of the most balanced races in the game when it comes to minerals. Sure they need about 500+ KT of duranium for the Golems, but the Automa and Instrumentalities are far less in their requirements
Generally right, but at game start, duranium is a real problem ..
Any tw LDSF needs 117kt, the pure hull of a: Pawn BS 350kt, Merlin 630kt, Automa 250kt, Instr. 240kt.
considering that each fighter requires 2 Mol and 3 Tri, a loaded Golem with 150 fighters will need 300 mol and 450 Tri which tends to balance out the large duranium investment in the hull.
right, but the most fighters gets (can be) build after the ship limit hit.

.. have a visit .. more later

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Shardin5
Posts: 3808

Post#15 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:30 pm

Hawkeye wrote:I find the Robots to be one of the most balanced races in the game when it comes to minerals. Sure they need about 500+ KT of duranium for the Golems, but the Automa and Instrumentalities are far less in their requirements, and considering that each fighter requires 2 Mol and 3 Tri, a loaded Golem with 150 fighters will need 300 mol and 450 Tri which tends to balance out the large duranium investment in the hull. When playing other races I tend to find I have large stockpiles of duranium.

Mark 4's can be really useful for minefield production when bulldozing a player that has just quit the game - usually this is around turns 40 to 70 when their mineral mines have been running for a long period. At this stage of the game minerals are generally in vast supply because the ship queue has been hit for the last 10-40 turns, however credits have gone towards beefing up base defences / tech levels etc. Ships equipped with M4's can make good use of those planets with large minerals and low cash. If there happens to be large cash quantities floating about, then these should go towards a new starbase.

Also consider that at the start of the game, you're not going to be kicking out Darkwings and Novas, but smaller torp ships like the Tranquility and LCC. It takes an additional 1800MC to get the base up to torp tech level 8, money that is much better spent on better engines for the freighters etc. In a nutshell, Mark 4's do have a deserving role in the game and shouldn't be overlooked, especially on the smaller cloaking torp ships.

Hawkeye :)
Mk4's are very important not only for beginning of the game, but for the end of the game when it comes to playing the Cylons and Tholians(other races too). Not only do Mk4's give the best MC/mine ratio, using md* Friendly codes while mixing mk4 and mk7(the 2nd best MC/mine ratio) ships, in laying webs and minefields, in overlaping or seeding Minefields/Webs. Mk4's help keep the Cylons 4x minelaying a real advantage. A Tholian Opal with mk4's is really a DANGEROUS ship.
I have only played the Rebels once, didn't like them, I am a HORRIBLE Reble player, ran into a cylon player, same game, that should me why I prefer the Cylons(bad Hawkeye).

Maybe for a Rebel Mk8's are worthwhile, but for most other races, and especially for the Tholians and Cylons, MK4's are much more useful. Not only the extra cost, for the tech level, the extra cost for each torp, the bad return on mine/torp costs, make MK8's a very expensive torp to get an extra 7pts in damage, that really only favors the Borg Cube, Fed Nova and the Birds Darkwing.

Lets not forget the mighty Gamma torp for the cloaking Races raiders.
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The US Marines don't have that problem.
President Ronald Reagan

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