Strategy hints

Here you can find, hints, strategies and other info for VGA Planets, PHost and it's many addon's and utilities.

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#76 » Thu May 27, 2010 7:24 am

Sooner or later, regardless of start spot, we always have to make
the choice between security and economy.

If you overbuild your scouts, you're not going to have an economy
and eventually you will be found anyway.

Generally speaking, you will be found by two+ neighbors by T10.
Think about that. In 10 turns, 810 LY of movement + ~300
visibility range. Half the map. Often, you'll be found by two good
players within 5 turns.

Here's the link to the old Fleets page I did a long time ago.
It's still mostly valid, there are early 3.2 hints (now invalid).
http://www.donovansvgap.com/museum/bane/p3fleet1.htm

Either a scout or an LDSF next, I agree with SS, Twarps only.
You've got to be able to move max move for two reasons:
#1: Speed/distance/visibility
#2: Tow breaking (especially freighters!)

I agree with SS, work on the basic early game framework and
then start developing the fine points.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Siberian Snake
Posts: 96

Post#77 » Thu May 27, 2010 10:46 am

There is a distinct advantage of moving LFs after the scouts, regardless of the race. First, you can choose where to go. If the scout found an Arctic Amorph planet, you don't have to hurry up to colonize it, it can wait.
Second, in Tim host you can't drop a fraction of the money aboard on the unowned planet. You have to drop everything (bdm) or nothing. Say, you go without scouts. Your first planet is mineral high, you drop 200 clans, some supplies and ALL the money. So what do you do on the next planet ? If it has natives, you will get cash to build factories with 1 turn delay. If it doesn't you have to sell 3/4 of the supplies to build factories - slow and wasteful. However, if the freighter is preceded by a scout that just drops 1 clan on every planet, you can drop the precise amount of money on each planet, it is MUCH more efficient.
Don't sweat too much to hide your general location, it will be known soon enough anyway. The exact location of the HW is what you want to conceal.

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wasp
Posts: 424

Post#78 » Thu May 27, 2010 11:01 am

But that way of thinking goes against the idea of developing natives worlds first.

From what i understood from BANE's ideas, you take the LF with 1000 clans&200Sup and planet hop until you find natives,droping 1 clan on every planet. When you find a native world ,you drop the clans and return to the HW to get more clans. If you find a planet with minerals you need, you can drop 200 clans or drop only one clan and move on. Another LF can afterwards delevop that rock planet.

Did i misunderstood it?

ricardo
"Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study Logistics" in Red Storm Rising from Tom Clancy

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#79 » Thu May 27, 2010 12:07 pm

Scouts first doesn't contradict...It's a another method.

The goal is develop your natives first.
Starting home world setup impacts starting moves.

LR Circle, homeworlds are from 200-400 LY apart.
That's 2-5 moves one way.
2 neighbors generally on opposite sides of you.
You can often times move LDSFs ~90 degrees away from those two.

Scattered setup where homeworlds are roughly equidistant ~500 LY
but spread around the map.
That's 3-7 moves one way.
Potentially 4-5 neighbors in a circle around you.
Not safe to send LDSFs in advance very far from home world early.

There isn't a foolproof strategy for starting...
LDSFs first is economically aggressive, but it has flaws.
Scouts first is safer and can be more efficient but can also be 1 or
more turns behind LDSFs first.

To compensate, I overdrive my two free ships and use them as my
scouts leading my LDSFs. This opens the door to drop cash on the
planets in exact amounts from LDSFs.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

Zeus
Posts: 34

Post#80 » Thu May 27, 2010 12:10 pm

Shardin5 wrote:
lord vinny wrote::coffee: DONT EVER FLY ABUNCH OF SHIPS OUT IN THE OPEN AT THE START OF THE GAME..EVERYONE WILL KNOW WHERE U ARE.. and for a bird thats a bad thing..its suppose to be the other way around..
\:D/
Thats why the Bird uses Swifty's they CLOAK and have a LONG range while cloaking
Well true, but like BANE already said, sometimes it makes sense to sent a freighter very early to an isolated cluster. If your Swift will find good native planets here, you has to send freighters anyway. Do it later and the chance to gets scanned is higher.

I build scouts (or hisser, Q-Tanker, Hyp-Ships, mdsf etc.) only, if no other useful ship can be build .. that are ~2-5 till turn 10 at the HW base. If an scout can explore a planet chain before a freighter goes this way, it's sure a bonus, but i would never build a scout only to explore the first planets, if i can build a freighter. That's imho lesser income till the ship limit hit.

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wasp
Posts: 424

Post#81 » Thu May 27, 2010 5:37 pm

I've decided to make a LF. That way i can transport clans to the nearer cluster or to develop planets near by.

This is turn 3 now. One of the other planets is a Insectoid world with 18140 clans and 4K Mol but only with 19 rate. I need 1306 clans to get the money.

The other is an Amphibian with 64290 clans, rather low minerals, and i need 1029 clans to get the money.

Now i have 2 LF, 2 start ships and the question remains. What to build next.

ricardo
"Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study Logistics" in Red Storm Rising from Tom Clancy

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#82 » Thu May 27, 2010 6:29 pm

Twarp Swift for the next two turns most likely.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

User avatar
Shardin5
Posts: 3808

Post#83 » Thu May 27, 2010 8:42 pm

Zeus wrote:
Shardin5 wrote:
lord vinny wrote::coffee: DONT EVER FLY ABUNCH OF SHIPS OUT IN THE OPEN AT THE START OF THE GAME..EVERYONE WILL KNOW WHERE U ARE.. and for a bird thats a bad thing..its suppose to be the other way around..
\:D/
Thats why the Bird uses Swifty's they CLOAK and have a LONG range while cloaking
Well true, but like BANE already said, sometimes it makes sense to sent a freighter very early to an isolated cluster. If your Swift will find good native planets here, you has to send freighters anyway. Do it later and the chance to gets scanned is higher.

I build scouts (or hisser, Q-Tanker, Hyp-Ships, mdsf etc.) only, if no other useful ship can be build .. that are ~2-5 till turn 10 at the HW base. If an scout can explore a planet chain before a freighter goes this way, it's sure a bonus, but i would never build a scout only to explore the first planets, if i can build a freighter. That's imho lesser income till the ship limit hit.
Since he is playing the Birds, I have been focused on Bird style of play, I actually like Wasp from our DSFBD, and just trying to help him learn the Birds.
He has already built his 2nd LDSF, and he should focus on building 2 or 3 Swifty's next. Bird has ZERO economy or Mineral bonus. Sending out his "Cloaked" Scouts to see both close planets, as well as remote isolated clusters will just be more benefical for him. He will know how to load up the LDSF's to arrive at Key planets earlier, instead of having to go oh Crap, I need to return to HW to gather more clans, or more money and supplies to work this Planet properly.

Every game were I go Frieghters early and no scouting as much I get screwed. When I follow the Scout 1st and follow afterwards, I do MUCH better.

Tactics that help the overpowering races, that get to build free Fighters, or races with Economy plus or races with mining plus, don't always work for the smaller races that need to get jump started asap. Birds are one of those races that need to jump start ASAP. You can't play the Birds, like the Rebel, or Cylons. Things that work for the Pirates or Tholians don't work either. Most early Bird players fail for not being agressive enough early on in scouting and growing strong early.

Current Klingon Game I am in is a great example. 2 starter ships, as the 1st scouts, then built 2 Coldpains in Raider style and sent them out scouting. 3rd ship was a LDSF. Turn 5 one Coldpain finds great planet. Turn 8 that Key planet is making 4800mc's, and has been churning out that kind of money since then. Races that have smaller ships, and need larger fleets, and need to reach the nearest non allied neighbor and kill him quickly need to work the system to start quickly and keep up the growth.
Turn 30 and out of my 30 capital ships, 12 of them are Vicky's. The entire reason for the growth, and continued growth, is key scouting followed up by properly prepared LDSF's as well as follow up LDSF's to move the proper minerals round.
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The US Marines don't have that problem.
President Ronald Reagan

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Akalabeth
Posts: 639

Post#84 » Thu May 27, 2010 10:05 pm

Siberian Snake wrote: Don't sweat too much to hide your general location, it will be known soon enough anyway. The exact location of the HW is what you want to conceal.
Yeah I tried to be super sneaky the one time I played birds, always planet hopped, used cloakers to colonize those planets I couldn't hop to.

Then on turn 6 some Rebel Falcon jumps right to my Homeworld.

Was not impressed.

User avatar
wasp
Posts: 424

Post#85 » Fri May 28, 2010 8:48 am

Shardin5 wrote: Since he is playing the Birds, I have been focused on Bird style of play, I actually like Wasp from our DSFBD, and just trying to help him learn the Birds.
I like that game a lot and you as well. But that was a rather easy game. I even used MF to shuttle everything from planet to planet. But i was playing the borg and we were on a cluster.
Shardin5 wrote: He has already built his 2nd LDSF, and he should focus on building 2 or 3 Swifty's next. Bird has ZERO economy or Mineral bonus. Sending out his "Cloaked" Scouts to see both close planets, as well as remote isolated clusters will just be more benefical for him. He will know how to load up the LDSF's to arrive at Key planets earlier, instead of having to go oh Crap, I need to return to HW to gather more clans, or more money and supplies to work this Planet properly.

This is the part i don't quite get it. In my case i have a cluster more or less circular 3 turns from my HW.
I have one string cluster 2 turns away.

Let us suppose i gor for the string one. If i make a SH,SH1, on turn 3 it goes on turn 4 and it arrives on turn 6 on one planet. In turn 5 and 6 i build 2 more SH, SH2 and SH3.

On turn 7 i build another LF, LF1. On turn 8 LF1 can be sent with clans/supplies/mcs.
So SH1 finds planet1, turn 7 planet2, turn 8 planet 3. It finds only low rocks that will need only 100clans, 100fab, 100mines, or even less.
SH2 finds a planet4 on turn 8.
So when the LF1 is ready to leave, it doesn't have any planet worth of it.
What does he carry?

If there's a planet which needs 1500 clans, i'm sure i'll need 2 LF with clans and supplies, or just 1 LF and send him to that planet first. On turn 9 there is another planet which needs 100+ clans, then the LF goes full of clans.

But What if it doesn't find worthy planets? What does he take?

If instead of building 3 scouts , i build 3 LF, then load them with 100 clans and 200 supplies, the first one arrives at turn 6, drops 1 clan, and moves to the next. If he finds a good planet the 2nd or 3th LF drops the necessary clans.
Why isn't this strategy doesn't work as well? I allways have to bring clans to the cluster, and it has to be about 4000 or so...

That is the part i'm not grasping...

Shardin5 wrote: Every game were I go Frieghters early and no scouting as much I get screwed. When I follow the Scout 1st and follow afterwards, I do MUCH better.

Tactics that help the overpowering races, that get to build free Fighters, or races with Economy plus or races with mining plus, don't always work for the smaller races that need to get jump started asap. Birds are one of those races that need to jump start ASAP. You can't play the Birds, like the Rebel, or Cylons. Things that work for the Pirates or Tholians don't work either. Most early Bird players fail for not being agressive enough early on in scouting and growing strong early.

Current Klingon Game I am in is a great example. 2 starter ships, as the 1st scouts, then built 2 Coldpains in Raider style and sent them out scouting. 3rd ship was a LDSF. Turn 5 one Coldpain finds great planet. Turn 8 that Key planet is making 4800mc's, and has been churning out that kind of money since then. Races that have smaller ships, and need larger fleets, and need to reach the nearest non allied neighbor and kill him quickly need to work the system to start quickly and keep up the growth.
Turn 30 and out of my 30 capital ships, 12 of them are Vicky's. The entire reason for the growth, and continued growth, is key scouting followed up by properly prepared LDSF's as well as follow up LDSF's to move the proper minerals round.
"Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study Logistics" in Red Storm Rising from Tom Clancy

Zeus
Posts: 34

Post#86 » Fri May 28, 2010 9:14 am

Shardin5 wrote: Since he is playing the Birds, I have been focused on Bird style of play, I actually like Wasp from our DSFBD, and just trying to help him learn the Birds.
He has already built his 2nd LDSF, and he should focus on building 2 or 3 Swifty's next.
I agree .. now (after he build LDSF) he should build tw Swifts. I think even for the Bird it's better to build a LDSF as first ship. But that's just my playing style and meaning.
Shardin5 wrote: Bird has ZERO economy or Mineral bonus. Sending out his "Cloaked" Scouts to see both close planets, as well as remote isolated clusters will just be more benefical for him. He will know how to load up the LDSF's to arrive at Key planets earlier, instead of having to go oh Crap, I need to return to HW to gather more clans, or more money and supplies to work this Planet properly.
I'm to lazy and my english is to bad, so I'm pass here. But I've not say that no scouts should be build, just that i would not scout the planets around the HW which can be reached by planet hopping. I also sent sometimes the first LDSF to a isolated cluster if the starting ships has not found good natives or mineral planets at turn 2.
Usually, I hear on my gut instinct.

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Captain Blood
Posts: 294

Post#87 » Fri May 28, 2010 4:54 pm

Surprise me a little that no one had suggested building a fast second base on the siliconoid. The torpedo Tech is free so it just need engine and Hull Tech 7 for making Resolutes and LDSF costing 7500 MC including the starbase.

Part of the money can be saved by not upgrading torpedo tech on HW.

If the above can be supported with minerals/MC for shipbuilding it will increase your general expansion rate very much, as it will allow you to build what suggested above and a lot more.

------------------------------------------------------------

Earlier in this tread someone debated if the birds was a strong or weak race. In fact both statements is correct. It all comes down to the opposition in each game. :)
Regards,

Captain Blood

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wasp
Posts: 424

Post#88 » Mon May 31, 2010 4:10 am

I might do that if the mineral/mc situation is enough for it. Have to do some calculations.

I have built my 1st SH and ordered a 2nd one. Will probably make a third.

Sent one of the LF to build mines on the DUR world and another to colonise the money planet.

The strength of the birds depends on the oposition but also on the planets near by as well.
"Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study Logistics" in Red Storm Rising from Tom Clancy

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wasp
Posts: 424

Post#89 » Mon May 31, 2010 9:32 am

Captain Blood wrote:Surprise me a little that no one had suggested building a fast second base on the siliconoid. The torpedo Tech is free so it just need engine and Hull Tech 7 for making Resolutes and LDSF costing 7500 MC including the starbase.
So, now there's another option for the development.

As Shardin5 had said earlier, i could build a WF with good beams.

Or,as Captain Blood says, i can build Resolutes with good torps, which will be Mk7 since i'm thinking of building the DW with Mk7.

Assuming i have the minerals/mcs to build either one, which should i build?

I haven't seen anyone yet.

Ricardo
"Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study Logistics" in Red Storm Rising from Tom Clancy

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wasp
Posts: 424

Post#90 » Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:48 am

Hi all

Found a planet with lots of Mol and 50 rate, on a nearby cluster. Tagged it as a rock.

moving to the other planets

ricardo
"Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study Logistics" in Red Storm Rising from Tom Clancy

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