Intercepting UFO objects?

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albatross
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Post#16 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:29 am

Rimstalker wrote:12 vickies? very nice. You showed that there were quite a few by almost sweeping max fields.
I'm aware of that, was sweeping my way through in search for a fight.

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JonnyDoH
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Post#17 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:12 pm

albatross wrote: Edit:
Another example for one of the many not-finished thoughts from the doc file itself:

"Viral field... can easily disable an entire enemy fleet."
This fact is ridiculous by itself, additionally however the field reassigns the fc of all affected vessels to VRF, therefore giving the Robots the enormous ability to capture ships - even more safely than Crystals or Privs. Besides that, the Cybernaut is a pretty unlucky choice, as you can forget cloak intercept with anything else than stacks or a darkwing that is. Solutions are: Affected ship fcs must be randomized and the default range of the viral field should be adjusted according to the map. Furthermore, the Pawn or even Iron Slave would have been a better choice.

Maybe I should weaken my above statement about Jupiter, as most abilities are based on good ideas. Main problem is, most of them have not been thought to the end.
I was going to save my opinions for the end of the Pit, but considering people are talking about it now, I thought I would lend my support:

I wholly agree with this. The Robots are getting, in essence, an unsweepable instant effect web field that's better than a web field. Not only can you disable the enemy ships, but you know exactly what their friendly code is to capture them.

Saying that the Cybernaut's crew is low and that's what limits its ability is a joke. While it requires a minimum of 100 crew members and loses 5% of its (current) crew per turn, it starts out with over 500 crew and can keep the field up for over 20 turns. I mean, a large enough web field can be swept before long.

My main beef is that it wouldn't be too much of an issue if the Robot Ship list wasn't powerful too begin with-- but with the Golem, Automata and Instrumentality representing the Robot's battlefleet, the Cybernaut viral field is pushing the power envelope through the roof.

That said, all respect to Oleg and this add on. It IS a rather fun addition to the game, though some abilities are simply too powerful.

EDIT: Just read that the Cybernaut in a Power Game (of which Rimstalker was referring to) has reduced crew count. Just checked-- yep, he's right. The Cybernaut in those games has 150 crew. In our game, however, they still have 558 crew. I still stand by my opinion. =P
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Rimstalker
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Post#18 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:37 am

Sorry Jonny, but you have neither figured out standard planets tactics, nor the Borg racial abilities of Jupiter.

You ranting about the mighty Robot fleet, whereas half the races can just bitchslap them with their Jupiter abilities does not help much.

On top of that, all of you ignored Antimatter missiles.

There are so many ways to deal with viral fields. Some are basic tactical approaches, taking into account the conditions under which it operates, others are hard counters through Jupiter abilities (Gorbie capture beam anyone?) and then there are creative counters through combinations of Jupiter abilities. Also, the third death specula will take it down.

Mind you, I'm not saying it is not one of the best Jupiter abilities, but it is also far from being the invincible monster you are trying to make it.
Wirklich reich ist, wer mehr | Truly rich is, who holds
Träume in seiner Seele hat, | more dreams in his soul
als die Realität zerstören kann.| than reality can destroy.

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JonnyDoH
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Post#19 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:17 am

Well, good for you then. Remember that this is the FIRST GAME I've had with the Jupiter Add on, so trying to figure everything out is proving to be a little difficult.

WHAT, pray tell, under the CYBORG abilities can counter the Cybernaut?

If you hadn't noticed, I tried to use my Super Intercept ability to counter it. Kinda difficult when you have a Golem parked on top of the Cybernaut and the loads of minefields slowing down my cubes as well. I fail to see where moving minefields can help too, when you can not only outlay my mines but you also have Colonial fighters sweeping them every turn.

Let's see.. what other Jupiter abilities do I have? Oh sure! Quietus Planet Strip that's foiled by 100 defense outposts. That's only 90% of the planets I've encountered thus far (Not merely used against you-- It worked once against the Crystals, then he caught on and made a load of defense outposts on his planets). And somehow I doubt the Siliconoid conversion ability is that "key" jupiter ability you must be referring to.

Orbital Defense Satellites? Good luck with those. I have them on planets but they're primarily a defensive tactic. I don't see how they apply to your cybernaut.

Warp Interdictor? Maybe, but I gave mine to my Birdman Ally to use. I didn't have an extra one to load onto my ships. I fail to see where that might have helped me though.

Gorbie capture beam? Oh, you're RIGHT. Problem is... I'M NOT ALLIED WITH HIM. He even took some of my planets while I was making a bid against you.

Honestly, at this point, Rimstalker, I feel like you're talking down from a major MAJOR superiority complex and ignoring game balance. Don't get me wrong-- I find you to be a competent and very good player at the game, but you have to remember that the rest of us aren't-- many of us are relatively new to the game.

When the game is over, perhaps you'll enlighten me on what I could have done to avoid your Cybernauts. At the moment, I'm entirely in the dark.

...And I don't think you can blame me for wholly ignoring Antimatter Missile Launchers-- I've done about all my newbie ass can do trying to take one down. So don't try to shame me by saying that I'm "ignoring" them.
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Rimstalker
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Post#20 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:23 am

Well, for starters, the 'half mine hit chance' for cube super intercept is utter bullshit. There is no bending the planets rules like that. If you move in the regular ship movement phase and your ship is not cloaked, you hit mines like everyone else.

So, knowing that, a simple testgame would have told you that the 2nd part of the super intercept movement simply ignores all minefields. From the Jupiter OoO we know that it happens in auxhost bc, so you would have even entered combat.

What does that tell us? Launch from any planet within about 150 lys of the cybernaut, and do some minesweeping with about three cubes that are slightly forward (of course shitty beams like the crap you put on cubes does not help here), or alternatively, countermine, so that your first 81 lys are mine-free and you will arrive at the cybernaut location undamaged.

Now, the cybernaut requires at least a PE setting, Kill if you want to affect all races, so 99% of the time, it will be on Kill mission.
If you knew anything about battle order and left side advantage in carrier vs. carrier, you would have long figured out that this gives you a huge advantage, because you will always have the left side of the vcr, with 10/10 cubes against 6/10 golems - giving you almost 70% chance to win the fight.

Gee, that was difficult, huh? All black magic and voodoo.

But yes, I have a huge superiority thing going and and talk out of my arse.
Wirklich reich ist, wer mehr | Truly rich is, who holds
Träume in seiner Seele hat, | more dreams in his soul
als die Realität zerstören kann.| than reality can destroy.

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JonnyDoH
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Post#21 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 4:01 am

Rimstalker wrote:
What does that tell us? Launch from any planet within about 150 lys of the cybernaut, and do some minesweeping...
...And if you lay mines the same turn I sweep or lay my own, what then? The first 81 light years are not necessarily safe and I have to set speed to warp nine in order to activate the Super Intercept ability.
Rimstalker wrote: ...with about three cubes that are slightly forward (of course shitty beams like the crap you put on cubes does not help here), or alternatively, countermine, so that your first 81 lys are mine-free and you will arrive at the cybernaut location undamaged.
I had one cube left by the time you took five of them. I had no idea that "shitty" beams like Heavy Blasters were crap for cubes, since all the guides I'd read (this includes on Donovan's site and Bane's Fleet Review pages) state that Heavy Blasters are good enough. Did I know better at the time? No. Do I know better now? Yes. Does that help me now? Not at the time of my cubes being captured, but maybe in the long run.
Rimstalker wrote:
Gee, that was difficult, huh? All black magic and voodoo.

But yes, I have a huge superiority thing going and and talk out of my arse.
I never said you're talking out of your ass. I'm strongly implying you're BEING an ass. There's a difference. Again, I respect your game abilities and experience of the game, but I don't think you're being entirely fair.

While I thank you for the instruction, I think certain help files should be made for the abilities in Jupiter, so as to level the playing field for newbies to the add-on. Jumping into a game and experimenting *during* the game is less fun than knowing what you're up against and planning accordingly.

I should add that I'm not saying that the Robots are a runaway super race. You missed the point in that I have a problem with the Cybernaut special ability. The "third deth specula" has nothing to do with my original post.
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Rimstalker
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Post#22 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 4:12 am

3rd Specula has to do with Alb's post.

And you seem to have no clue about minelaying and minesweeping either.

Do I need to draw pretty pictures and spell out everything for you? You could at least pretend to put some effort in.
Wirklich reich ist, wer mehr | Truly rich is, who holds
Träume in seiner Seele hat, | more dreams in his soul
als die Realität zerstören kann.| than reality can destroy.

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JonnyDoH
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Post#23 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 4:36 am

Rimstalker wrote:3rd Specula has to do with Alb's post.

And you seem to have no clue about minelaying and minesweeping either.

Do I need to draw pretty pictures and spell out everything for you? You could at least pretend to put some effort in.
Yes, I think so. As I've noted in the past, I do know a few things, but certain aspects of the game are lost on me. Something that might be incredibly obvious to you might have been lost to me.

Again, for me, second time as Cyborg. First time with Jupiter. Fifteenth (or so) game of VGA planets. Still learning.

Think of it this way: Ever play Twilight Imperium with a new person?

They might have some idea of how the role cards work, but unsure of how they're played with the secondary abilities, special cards, racial abilities and what not. You're just smacking that player around, enjoying wholly that you're beating the crap out of them, but telling them to "go read the rules" instead of being sportsmanlike and explaining to them anything that might be unclear.

On the one hand, I can understand why you don't want to tell that person the subtleties of what to do-- you're out to win the game.

On the other hand, you're also insulting whom you're playing against and calling them a "newb" while degrading their intelligence by offering to "draw pretty pictures" for them. You're telling them that they haven't paid attention to the "basics of the game" when those basics aren't entirely clear.

Sure, they're going to learn how to play, but in any future game who do you think they're going to angle to kill first? In a previous post you mentioned how other players made a pact to team up and outright go for your throat. While I think that's unfair to you, I can also understand why they did what they did. Hell, given the same situation, I would probably do exactly the same. Your responses don't exactly endear me with respect for you.

Back to the point... I have some knowledge of minelaying and minesweeping.

I know that

+ minelaying occurs consecutively by ship ID when told to do so by ship orders.

+ mine sweepinng occurs after mine laying.

+ robots have a 4x advantage against other races.

+ Colonial carriers can sweep with their fighters.

+ If you can match the friendly code of a minefield, you won't hit any mines.

+ Chances of hitting mines go up with ship speed and distance traveled. Exact chances are posted on various pages around the internet. Yes, I've seen and reviewed them.

Shaky knowledge that I've only learned about a five turns or so ago:

+ Minefields' friendly codes match the planetary friendly code their center is closest to.

+ Heavy Blasters are considered "shitty" when trying to sweep minefields. Phasers are too, probably. You always want to go a minimum of Heavy Disrupters or Heavy Phasers.

That should save you some time in offering any advice, Rimstalker. Thanks in advance, by the way-- I do appreciate any advice you can give me-- just not the condescending attitude.
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JonnyDoH
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Post#24 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 4:42 am

Rimstalker wrote: Do I need to draw pretty pictures and spell out everything for you? You could at least pretend to put some effort in.
I should add that I DID put effort in with several cubes. You have them now. To state that I have put no effort in is both incredulous and insulting.

To the best of my knowledge at the time of my push, I did what I could with the ships I had. It would be more honest for you to state simply that I was screwed from the outset. I can respect that answer more than I can stomach the one you've given.
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JonnyDoH
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Post#25 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 4:56 am

By the way... I've largely "ignored" AM launchers due to a misunderstanding in how the missiles could be worked (I mistakenly believed they would continue flying if the launching planet was obliterated).

I have another reason now, but we shall see if that comes to fruition in a turn or so. If it fails to pan out I will surrender to your forces, Rimstalker and Donovan. If it works though... Well, we'll see.
:wink:
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Donovan
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Post#26 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:20 am

Well I can save you the agony of waiting....

When a planet is hit by a doomsday missile, it ends up without an owner. That will destroy both the launcher and the missile that it has in flight.

Planet 187 is going to be toast in two or three turns, and the missile on route to planet 452 will just disappear.

What Rimstalker meant by 'ignoring' the doomsday launchers, is that you haven't built any of them soon enough. Once you're too late, there's no comeback. With each launcher you build now, we just do the math on how far we're willing to let that launcher fire, and figure out which launcher we use to destroy yours. You could have fired launcher 187 against a planet in the former Lizard homecluster for example, but you were never going to hit any of our planets with it.

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JonnyDoH
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Post#27 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:03 am

Donovan wrote:Well I can save you the agony of waiting....

When a planet is hit by a doomsday missile, it ends up without an owner. That will destroy both the launcher and the missile that it has in flight.
Yeah, I think I figured that one out. Now the remaining question is... Does the planetary cloaking field protect against an Antimatter missile? That's what I'm hanging around to find out. I'm sure you figured that one out already too.
Donovan wrote:
What Rimstalker meant by 'ignoring' the doomsday launchers, is that you haven't built any of them soon enough. Once you're too late, there's no comeback. With each launcher you build now, we just do the math on how far we're willing to let that launcher fire, and figure out which launcher we use to destroy yours. You could have fired launcher 187 against a planet in the former Lizard homecluster for example, but you were never going to hit any of our planets with it.
That makes sense and I wholly agree with you. I very much underestimated the AML's and will be much more prone to their use in the future.

I think what got my goat the most was Rimstalker's responses to my posts saying that I overlooked a fundamental ability of the Cyborg, the Super Intercept. The thing is, I DID attempt a super intercept with a single cube (the only cube left in the area after the others were captured). While it failed in its mission (it didn't even reach his cybernaut, which had me perplexed as to the super intercept failure), Rimstalkers replies implied that I missed something ELSE having to do with the Jupiter addon abilities, and I was torturing myself trying to figure out what it was. I think he should have just said "You're close, but try again."
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Rimstalker
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Post#28 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:01 am

JonnyDoH wrote:
Rimstalker wrote:
What does that tell us? Launch from any planet within about 150 lys of the cybernaut, and do some minesweeping...
...And if you lay mines the same turn I sweep or lay my own, what then? The first 81 light years are not necessarily safe and I have to set speed to warp nine in order to activate the Super Intercept ability.
This is what I am talking about. If you put four heavy phaser Cubes forward, they will sweep 16 000 mines, reducing any number of max fields I pop that very turn from 150 lys down to 80 lys, which will be all you need.

And sorry, but still calling yourself a beginner after 15 games is somewhat funny for me. I'd more use the term 'slow learner'.

Did you ever wonder how I lay those nasty overlapping minefields? Do you know how that works? If I saw any of that shit pulled off, I did not stop simming and reading up until I knew.

Also, you are writing as part of your 'knowledge' that ship speed affects mine hit odds. Plain wrong for thost, applies only for phost. What DOES matter is the angle at which you fly through the mines.
Wirklich reich ist, wer mehr | Truly rich is, who holds
Träume in seiner Seele hat, | more dreams in his soul
als die Realität zerstören kann.| than reality can destroy.

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JonnyDoH
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Post#29 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:16 am

Rimstalker wrote:
This is what I am talking about. If you put four heavy phaser Cubes forward, they will sweep 16 000 mines, reducing any number of max fields I pop that very turn from 150 lys down to 80 lys, which will be all you need.
Again, didn't realize what armament I should be leading my fleet with. I suppose it was an obvious decision-- but up to that point the only cubes with Heavy Phasers were the ones waiting in the Queue. All the ones that were "out" only had Heavy Blasters (or slightly better, phasers) because they were all I could afford early on. My choice of which ships to lead with were limited.
Rimstalker wrote: And sorry, but still calling yourself a beginner after 15 games is somewhat funny for me. I'd more use the term 'slow learner'.
Perhaps so. I'll admit, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed-- which is why I often ask for enlightenment. You could be more kind about that, you know. Again, your response to any given post of mine still doesn't endear me to you. Even when I'm asking something with a measure of humility and acknowledgement of your superior play skills, you continue to deride my intelligence.

Again, I'm reminded of your story of how other players teamed up against you. I can't say that I blame them. Hell, I'll join in in spirit just for kicks.
Rimstalker wrote: Did you ever wonder how I lay those nasty overlapping minefields? Do you know how that works? If I saw any of that ship pulled off, I did not stop simming and reading up until I knew.
I think I have some idea. I could be wrong. Since it doesn't pertain to the original topic, I can only see it as another attempt to condescend my intelligence. If I am incorrect, please enlighten me. Otherwise my opinion of you drops even lower.
Rimstalker wrote: Also, you are writing as part of your 'knowledge' that ship speed affects mine hit odds. Plain wrong for thost, applies only for phost. What DOES matter is the angle at which you fly through the mines.
I had no idea. What other differences are there between thost and phost? Is it listed somewhere? Again, little differences that aren't immediately obvious. I knew there's a difference in ship sets and stats, but I had no idea they changed the way minefields functioned.

Edit: I really had NO idea that there were differences between thost and phost. I've read this page before and never noticed it listed differences. I know I read this page in the past but didn't make that connection until you pointed it out. Is there a spot on the internet that consolidates the differences for easy reading? Or is it heavy studying for those differences?
Last edited by JonnyDoH on Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rimstalker
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Post#30 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:36 am

phost even changed the host order. And tow resolution. And how the queue functions (at least it is used on most games). And combat. And many, many other things. However, the phost site does have a nice phost-thost difference list.

Try to stick to thost.

Overlapping minefields: When new minefields are laid, host checks only if you are within the minefield with the center closest to you.

Btw, one of the best ways to slow down a Robot is to fill up the minefield slots. Did you ever do that? Takes plenty of effort and dedication.

Phost even has personal minefield alottments ;).
Wirklich reich ist, wer mehr | Truly rich is, who holds
Träume in seiner Seele hat, | more dreams in his soul
als die Realität zerstören kann.| than reality can destroy.

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