SFB: Evolution

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Klauser
Posts: 991

Post#16 » Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:09 am

B A N E wrote:Klauser,
The above is from the SFB list correct?
Yes.
B A N E wrote:Ok, simple adjustment to above regarding 5 phases:
(Which I think I like better than 4.)

Cluster 1 (Phase 1 & 2) 8 players
Using Klauser's estimated T25 add Phase 2.
Victors of their cluster gets access to a wormhole to 1 new cluster.

Cluster 2 (Phase 3 & 4) 4 players remain
As soon as all four clusters are conquered, Phase 3 begins.
25 turns later, Phase 4.
Victors of the Cluster vs Cluster conflict gain new wormhole(s) to
remaining cluster(s).

Cluster 3 (Phase 5) 2 players.
Phase 5 starts as soon as last two players left.

Thots?
Nice - VERY nice. It fits beautifully into your Arena concept.

The ships each race gets per phase was designed for conventional "start from one homeworld" play - although it also works well with a "wandering tribes setup" where each race gets a Tug and a heavy "escort" (generally a Heavy Cruiser)

There are some subtle variations for each race. For example, the Orion gets the Casino ship at Phase 2, while the rest get it at Phase 3. Take a look at the ships per phase, and see if there's anything you want shuffled around to fit Arena.

If you'd prefer, I've got the ships per race in each Phase broken out in an Excel spreadsheet. If you'd like that, send me a PM with your email address and I'll send it along.

hennef wrote:
i need alchemy-ships at turn one ... please
I don't understand why. Generally, I'm talking about light ships in Phase 1 - frigates, destroyers and a light freighter. Did I miss something that would require an alchemy ship???
Klauser

"Any ship can be a minesweeper ... once!"

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#17 » Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:59 pm

Thanks for the file Klauser.
I'll review and compare ships in the next few days.

I expect that I will find little to disagree with.

When these sorts of ideas get developed, it gets me interested in
playing the scenario.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#18 » Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:39 pm

Looked through, I don't see anything glaring.
Should be good to go.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

SFB: Evolution Phase victory conditions

Post#19 » Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:42 pm

As much as I like flagship and homeworld, they lend themselves too
much to specific race advantages in 1vs1 conflicts.

It's too easy to eliminate a single target no matter how well defended
it may be (by certain race / tactics).

So, both are out.

That leaves total victory and invasion points.
Total victory would create a game that took forever to end and in
some clusters, depending upon the random matchup, one player
could be waiting a long time for a conflict resolution.

ie: Robot versus Crystals

So, total victory is out.

That leaves invasion points.
This needs to be a relatively low number to allow for a relatively fast
moving game.

I am thinking 10-20 points to win the first cluster.
This leaves enough time for an empire to recover, retake their home
or conquer enemy home. It creates a target, but doesn't give a one
shot win at the buzzer effect that homeworld and flagship do.

So, when one race gains 10-20 invasion points, the other is killraced.
This opens up an indeterminate amount of planets in their cluster to
develop while they await the link via wormhole to the next cluster.
This solves the potential "nothing to do while waiting". Build up ASAP
because your next battle is coming soon.

Phase 2: Cluster versus cluster.
Combat needs to be encouraged and Tons does that.
So, I'm leaning towards tons in Cluster vs Cluster.
Kill enough tons (which won't be initiated until this point) and you
win Phase 2. This should keep the ships exploding and keep the
queue moving. Then use killrace again... same as phase 1.

In the final phase, 2 clusters vs 2 clusters (2 players).
Each victor of phase two will have ~250 planets.
With such large empires, it's time to win the war of real estate.

I am thinking that something along the lines of a planet count
of 2:1(333:167) or 3:1(375:125) to gain the victory for the game.

There will be singular points of invasions via wormholes and this
will definitely make getting a foothold difficult.

Being that the wormholes are one-way, depending upon how they
are setup, fleet deployment will be important. How much do you
send versus retain for defense.

I'm liking this concept more all the time.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Klauser
Posts: 991

Post#20 » Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:32 pm

Several questions and comments …

- Do you still envision using the SFB shiplist for Arena?

- Do you still envision using the “evolution” concept along with Arena?

- How would the “invasion points” be graded and earned?

Depending on your answers, the following thoughts may or may not apply…


I’m a big fan of simple victory conditions.

I would think that a standard victory condition based on something like the planet counts you mentioned would suffice at all stages. For example, at stage one, you need a 2:1 advantage (167:83) in planets to win the cluster. For stage two you need a the same advantage – 2:1 (or 333:167) to win, and at stage 3 the same 2:1 is 667:333.

I see your point about some races being able to stagnate the contest – i.e. Player 7 (WebMines). However if you intend to incorporate “evolution” using the SFB list, that may be offset some by the limited ship availability. Again, using the Tholian as an example, during the first stage (fighting in a single cluster against a single opponent), you have a grand total of two minelayers – the ARACHNID (phase 1) and WASP-T (phase 2). If the Tholian focuses on minelaying as opposed to taking planets, that would tend to give an opponent focused on expansion an advantage. This of course depends on how mineral rich you make your HCONFIG. Your mileage my vary ;)

The second stage may pose greater challenges for an invader – but the bigger ships available in later phases provide greater options and opportunities. Again, using the Tholian as an example – yeah he can mine the crap out of his home cluster in stage two, but his attacker coming into a his cluster via wormhole has access to larger ships with greater numbers of beams.

My 2-credits worth …
Klauser

"Any ship can be a minesweeper ... once!"

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#21 » Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:16 pm

Klauser wrote:Several questions and comments …

- Do you still envision using the SFB shiplist for Arena?

- Do you still envision using the “evolution” concept along with Arena?

- How would the “invasion points” be graded and earned?
Yes to SFB List
Yes to SFB Evolution

If using Rconfig, invasion points are counted for each turn an enemy
homeworld is held. One point is lost for each turn your homeworld is
lost.

So, if both races capture each other's homeworld, they're still even.

So, in a 1v1 (phase 1) scenario, you have to capture and hold both
homeworlds for 10-20 turns (rconfig) to win your cluster.
Klauser wrote: Depending on your answers, the following thoughts may or may not apply…

I’m a big fan of simple victory conditions.

I would think that a standard victory condition based on something like the planet counts you mentioned would suffice at all stages. For example, at stage one, you need a 2:1 advantage (167:83) in planets to win the cluster. For stage two you need a the same advantage – 2:1 (or 333:167) to win, and at stage 3 the same 2:1 is 667:333.

I see your point about some races being able to stagnate the contest – i.e. Player 7 (WebMines). However if you intend to incorporate “evolution” using the SFB list, that may be offset some by the limited ship availability. Again, using the Tholian as an example, during the first stage (fighting in a single cluster against a single opponent), you have a grand total of two minelayers – the ARACHNID (phase 1) and WASP-T (phase 2). If the Tholian focuses on minelaying as opposed to taking planets, that would tend to give an opponent focused on expansion an advantage. This of course depends on how mineral rich you make your HCONFIG. Your mileage my vary ;)

The second stage may pose greater challenges for an invader – but the bigger ships available in later phases provide greater options and opportunities. Again, using the Tholian as an example – yeah he can mine the crap out of his home cluster in stage two, but his attacker coming into a his cluster via wormhole has access to larger ships with greater numbers of beams.

My 2-credits worth …
The problem I see with planet count based victory early on is that it
can be quickly skewed by a fast colonizer race like the borg. Borg
jumps out, grabs colonies ASAP and if opponent doesn't build the
ships to kill those worlds fast enough, he's beaten. If he does go
and build the warships to kill the borg planets (difficult with weak ships)
he doesn't have an economy to fight the developed borg that got
there w/o having to really employ much effort into colonization.
(Thus part of the reason for a reduced assimilation rate for Borg/Selts?)
Of course we could ditch assimilation altogether due to the Selts having
a substantially different list than the borg.

A reason for the different victory conditions was to change it up
between the phases. Each one should encourage combat but each
with a different focus.

Phase One simple nonmoving target (homes).
Phase two moving target (ships).
Phase three territory control (a changing target).

Hconfig, I would make the universe poor or at most normal with
no meteors.

As the phases progress, the minerals will deplete and if folks haven't
developed their infrastructure, they won't last.

Endless supplies of minerals is both unrealistic and problematic.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#22 » Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:01 pm

Regarding Tons and Ref.exe and rconfig.

The tons sunk is configurable and the values are 10pts per 1kt sunk.
So, a destroyed Klingon B10 = 960*10=>9600 pts.

The smallest preset is 1,000,000 pts
That would be the equivalent of destroying 11 B10s.

I would think something substantially higher but not too much
would be in orders. Say... 3-5M tons or the equivalent of 30-50
B10s in mass.

SFBlist lends itself well to the tons method due to the similarities
in the fleets.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Klauser
Posts: 991

Post#23 » Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:20 am

B A N E wrote:Regarding Tons and Ref.exe and rconfig.

The tons sunk is configurable and the values are 10pts per 1kt sunk.
So, a destroyed Klingon B10 = 960*10=>9600 pts.

The smallest preset is 1,000,000 pts
That would be the equivalent of destroying 11 B10s.

I would think something substantially higher but not too much
would be in orders. Say... 3-5M tons or the equivalent of 30-50
B10s in mass.

SFBlist lends itself well to the tons method due to the similarities
in the fleets.
When you mentioned Tons earlier, one of the reasons I didn't care for the idea was the disparity in ship tonnage between races in Tim's default shiplist. I didn't take into consideration that the SFB shiplist was more balanced - and I should have since built the list!!

Great idea!
Klauser

"Any ship can be a minesweeper ... once!"

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#24 » Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:31 am

When I first thought of tons, like you, the standard reason for rejecting
tons came to mind...Tim's list disparity.

The only race I see having a problem with tons would be the Orions.
Anyone picking the Orions going into SFB:Evolution/Arena would have
to know they will be handicapped.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

User avatar
B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#25 » Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:12 pm

Klauser wrote:Okay ... back to Evolution.

HConfig Notes:
----------------
- ON: Casino, Cloning, BuildFighters
- OFF: HyperDrive
- Glory Dev on starting at Phase 3
Excellent.
HYP off solves part of the problem regarding cluster design.
Along with SFB list.

I didn't ask before...but do the Seltorians get assimilation?
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

User avatar
Klauser
Posts: 991

Post#26 » Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:37 pm

B A N E wrote:I didn't ask before...but do the Seltorians get assimilation?
For SFB use in regular play, I usually turn off the assimilation for the Seltorians. For Arena, I can see reasons to leave it on or turn it off.

Your thots?
Klauser

"Any ship can be a minesweeper ... once!"

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#27 » Fri Jun 23, 2006 8:45 pm

Klauser wrote:
B A N E wrote:I didn't ask before...but do the Seltorians get assimilation?
For SFB use in regular play, I usually turn off the assimilation for the Seltorians. For Arena, I can see reasons to leave it on or turn it off.

Your thots?
Feds have refit, Gorn has hiss, Roms cloak, Klingons have theirs.
Orion steals, Tholian webs, Lyrans DS, ISC mines, Hydran RGA,
Kzin Fighter sweep.

That being the case, I am inclined to leave assimilation on but at
the suggested rates I mentioned earlier:
8 Player, 1st Cluster, Phase 1&2: 25-33%
4 Player: 2nd Cluster, Phase 3&4: 50-67%
2 Player: 3rd Cluster, Phase 5: 100%

Considering the nature of this game, I am also inclined to remove
the Orions. They just won't fair well in a shooting war.

Your thoughts?
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

User avatar
Klauser
Posts: 991

Post#28 » Fri Jun 23, 2006 9:59 pm

B A N E wrote:Feds have refit, Gorn has hiss, Roms cloak, Klingons have theirs.
Orion steals, Tholian webs, Lyrans DS, ISC mines, Hydran RGA,
Kzin Fighter sweep.

That being the case, I am inclined to leave assimilation on but at
the suggested rates I mentioned earlier:
8 Player, 1st Cluster, Phase 1&2: 25-33%
4 Player: 2nd Cluster, Phase 3&4: 50-67%
2 Player: 3rd Cluster, Phase 5: 100%
Yep ... sounds good to me. Since the Seltorians are extra-galactic bugs, if you squeeze one eye real tight and tilt your head, you can almost make assimilation seem like a race ability they "ought" to have.

B A N E wrote:Considering the nature of this game, I am also inclined to remove the Orions. They just won't fair well in a shooting war.

Your thoughts?
I think you're right - the Orions will fair poorly in this environment. However, some players are just nucking futz about playing certain races - - and many Orion players are like that. At a minimum, I wouldn't let a player take the race without ensuring they understood the handicap they're facing. It's probably smarter in the long run to leave out the Orions.

You would prefer players just not be allowed to select Race 5? Or would you prefer I remove the race & ships from the ship data files all together?
Klauser

"Any ship can be a minesweeper ... once!"

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#29 » Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:41 am

I think I'd just make race 5 unavailable to choose.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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