Use of Kill Race is crapping the games....

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Gilgamesh
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Post#31 » Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:54 pm

Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote:
Lets say it turn 31 and the number of ships is 500 you have 20 PBPs, I have 22 PBP and we both have starbases with friendly set to PB1. On turn 32, there are no ships lost or built. On turn 33 no ships are lost except you decide to recycle a SDSF for 1 PBP. Do you know who just built a ship? On turn 34, the Robot and the CoM have a good size battle and they rack up the PBPs. The CoM get 8 PBPs added to their existing 16 PBPs. Can you guess who built a ship on turn 34?
But to get those PBPs the Cols destroyed at least one ship - I recycled a SDSF - He might get a build, but so will I.
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Mika
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Post#32 » Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:55 pm

Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote: But are the minerals and MC you used to build a SDSF really worth percentage mineral reclaimed, the lose of the MC and one point you get for recycling?
When you see 4 Novas coming closer, you have just one defending carrier there and you have that one small freighter and the necessary 20pbp's to set that planet/base under attack to PB1 building a Gorbie/Biocide/Rush/Golem/Virgo that can be made ready for fight before the enemy fleet arrives that one small freighter is worth two nice kills, a planet and a base.

Or another situation:
you don't have the 20pbp's but you know that base id 100 built last turn... you need a ship at base 101 (best case) so all you have to do is to recycle that one crappy small deep.

There is not the question if these ships are worth the effort... it is only the question how often you are one step ahead because you have those little ships.
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Cherek
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Post#33 » Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:56 pm

*edited*
I also want to remind you the PBX only allows you to control which of your starbases will build first. After the ship limit is reached THost checks after combat phase to see who has the most PBPs and the player with the most PBPs is the first to build a ship and keeps repeating this process until the ship limit is reached.
Last edited by Cherek on Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cherek
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Post#34 » Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:00 pm

Gilgamesh wrote:
Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote:
Lets say it turn 31 and the number of ships is 500 you have 20 PBPs, I have 22 PBP and we both have starbases with friendly set to PB1. On turn 32, there are no ships lost or built. On turn 33 no ships are lost except you decide to recycle a SDSF for 1 PBP. Do you know who just built a ship? On turn 34, the Robot and the CoM have a good size battle and they rack up the PBPs. The CoM get 8 PBPs added to their existing 16 PBPs. Can you guess who built a ship on turn 34?
But to get those PBPs the Cols destroyed at least one ship - I recycled a SDSF - He might get a build, but so will I.
That is assuming that no one had more PBPs than you.
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Gilgamesh
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Post#35 » Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:07 pm

No way to guarantee that anyway, although you may get a good idea from where the PBPs stood last turn. You have to pick your moments.
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Post#36 » Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:14 pm

What an interesting read this forum has been.

I wonder for those who decry the building of so called 'small and useless queue filling ships', whether they ignore the realities of the ship queue. Clearly they do not. As the posts indicate, we all understand how to work PB points, and when these occur etc. If you want to be a 'purist', then play the game ignoring these. Not going to happen. Likewise, the big mean battleship builders may elect not to build lots of smaller ships, for fear, it might preclude the ability to build an automa or gorbie at the end of the game. One could equally say this is 'playing the queue' and exploiting it. If you can build an mdsf, but nothing else, why wouldn't you? It can almost always be of some use. But no, some elect not to, because they are thinking of the queue effects... This is no less 'manipulation' of the ship queue than those who build small crappy ships, with the express intent of filling the queue. (not something I personally do, but i agree with others - if its within the realms of possibility, folk who want to do it are not lesser players.).

I could also say the ship queue is unfair on races like the lizards and the fascists because of the comparative smaller battleships they can build.

it's an interesting thought provoking

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Cardno
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Post#37 » Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:16 pm

(cont). discussion however..

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Gilgamesh
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Post#38 » Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:17 pm

Cardno wrote:What an interesting read this forum has been.
Agreed - great and respectful exchange of ideas and viewpoints.

Cardno wrote:I could also say the ship queue is unfair on races like the lizards and the fascists because of the comparative smaller battleships they can build.
That is less of a queue question and strays more into the realm of the Ascore scoring system and ][avok has been looking at alternatives. If it was straight Tim Score you could also argue that it is unfairly biased toward the Klingons and Lizards as it's easier to crank out a battleship on less cost in terms of minerals, money and PBPs.
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Post#39 » Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:18 pm

Cardno wrote:I could also say the ship queue is unfair on races like the lizards and the fascists because of the comparative smaller battleships they can build.

it's an interesting thought provoking
If you think BPB unfair to the Lizards and Fascist, think about the Privateers and Tholians, you don't get PBPs for robbing, snaring ships in WEBs or tow/capture.
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Gilgamesh
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Post#40 » Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:25 pm

Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote:
Cardno wrote:I could also say the ship queue is unfair on races like the lizards and the fascists because of the comparative smaller battleships they can build.

it's an interesting thought provoking
If you think BPB unfair to the Lizards and Fascist, think about the Privateers and Tholians, you don't get PBPs for robbing, snaring ships in WEBs or tow/capture.
No but you do get PBPs from using the ships you capture to kill enemy ships. I've never played the Privs (have to do that someday when I have a lot of time to make turns) but I can't see why you would go above tech 6 hulls, except to build alchemy ships, which you should have done well before the shiplimit hit. From an amateur view of this race I still would be building just MCBRs beyond the shiplimit. So if I was doing some serious damage with captured Missouris or whatever, I could build at several bases on a good jump over the 21 PBP limit and be in a better position to snare more enemy battleships. Valid? Or would I make a lousy pirate?
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Post#41 » Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:44 pm

Gilgamesh wrote:No but you do get PBPs from using the ships you capture to kill enemy ships. I've never played the Privs (have to do that someday when I have a lot of time to make turns) but I can't see why you would go above tech 6 hulls, except to build alchemy ships, which you should have done well before the shiplimit hit. From an amateur view of this race I still would be building just MCBRs beyond the shiplimit. So if I was doing some serious damage with captured Missouris or whatever, I could build at several bases on a good jump over the 21 PBP limit and be in a better position to snare more enemy battleships. Valid? Or would I make a lousy pirate?
The Privateer does have the advantages you mention depending on his neighbors, but not so with the Tholians. Sure, we can capture a ship in our WEBs. Then we sit there keeping the WEB up while it slowly drains the fuel (and that can take a long while for some of the really big ships with big fuel tanks). But the Privateer and the Tholians face one problem, after we capture the ships, we need to tow it back to a starbase to repair any damage from hitting a WEB and to replenish the crew once we kick the enemy crew into the airlock and open the door. Quite often, the Tholians don’t have a MBR to quickly tow a captured ship to a starbase and back to the front line.
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Post#42 » Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:05 am

PBP's for the Tholians and the Pirate is a problem. I always hear, well you get the ship as the Tholian, a ship you can't clone, nor rebuild, not to mention the costs involved with Keeping up webs to drain ships, the very fact that the Tholian normally has small fleet before limit as he has to work hard REAL hard on his economy for the long haul. So after ship limit ,as the Tholian spends a fortune to keep others out or keep them fenced in, he watchs others rack up PBP's, and they get all the ship builds, when he does go to war the Tholian has to use combo's to fight the big boys with his own ships, so even as he is getting PBP's, he is giving PBP's up to the others that have a head start, not to mention have you tried keeping fenced in Gorbies, Golems, Cubes? I think it is only right for the Tholian and the Pirate to get PBP's for the ships captured. Considering the expense, and lost ships, they lose while trying to capture ships, it is only fair for them to get PBP's.
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Post#43 » Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:15 am

Cardno wrote:I could also say the ship queue is unfair on races like the lizards and the fascists because of the comparative smaller battleships they can build.
That is less of a queue question and strays more into the realm of the Ascore scoring system and ][avok has been looking at alternatives. If it was straight Tim Score you could also argue that it is unfairly biased toward the Klingons and Lizards as it's easier to crank out a battleship on less cost in terms of minerals, money and PBPs.[/quote]

I agree - it is less of a ship build question. It's more to do with the fact that the starbase manufacturing facility managers are dumb, and can only build one ship at a time - no matter how big it is. If the game had the ability to build multiple ships at a starbase each turn, but with a maximum component mass, it would indeed be an interesting scenario....

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hennef
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Post#44 » Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:12 am

Enemy#1 wrote:PBP's for the Tholians and the Pirate is a problem. I always hear, well you get the ship as the Tholian, a ship you can't clone, nor rebuild, not to mention the costs involved with Keeping up webs to drain ships, the very fact that the Tholian normally has small fleet before limit as he has to work hard REAL hard on his economy for the long haul. So after ship limit ,as the Tholian spends a fortune to keep others out or keep them fenced in, he watchs others rack up PBP's, and they get all the ship builds, when he does go to war the Tholian has to use combo's to fight the big boys with his own ships, so even as he is getting PBP's, he is giving PBP's up to the others that have a head start, not to mention have you tried keeping fenced in Gorbies, Golems, Cubes? I think it is only right for the Tholian and the Pirate to get PBP's for the ships captured. Considering the expense, and lost ships, they lose while trying to capture ships, it is only fair for them to get PBP's.
hello? you already get a "free" ship - the one you captured. why hsould you get any pbps for it. then anyone should get pbps for capturing, but that is one of the big descisions you make when invading enemy territory: do i try to capture this q-tanker (maybe it has 120 fighters on board) or do i kill it off because i want the pbp and it probably is only a waste s1-hull :-k
if i would get points for capturing i would capture any ship i stumble across - well i would try - and then recycle it afterwards, if it was crap. so i would get pbps twice - NICE!
and i really do not see the important ships a tholian or privateer could cleverly build with pbps, because i normally use them for smaller tactical ships somewhere near the front line or a ldsf when i just need one. why should i was a whole 20points on a gorbi? the priv only builds mbrs anyway... and you do not tow a captured ship all the way back to a base, do you? i would rather set up a new one fast :P
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Cherek
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Post#45 » Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:20 am

We’re not saying that we should get PBP for capturing ships, but now that you mention it, it would be nice. All we are saying is the Privateers and the Tholians are severely short changed when it comes to PBPs and we suffer in the ship building queue for it.

After the ship limit has been reached, lets say I captured a Golem and tow it back to a starbase for repair and crew replenishment (after all, I don’t want to send it into battle 250 or less crew members) and then send to back to the front line. I have a new ship, but because of other battles, the Robots may built two or more ships to replace the Golem in the time I was able to bring the Golem back to the front line. Meanwhile, all of my SBs have ships waiting to be built, but it has be ten turns since I built a ship and I have lost a few ships since the last time I built a ship.

In Phost, you read your messages and see all the ships exploding. As continue to read your messages, you see that the one or two ships stuck in your WEBs and still haven’t run out of fuel. Then you read the next to last message, it is the most painful message to read, you see that your next ship is #35 in the build queue.
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