Use of Kill Race is crapping the games....

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B A N E
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Post#46 » Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:54 am

One thing about the Phost queue system...
Love or hate it, you don't change your builds at the last minute!

end of the line for you!
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Gilgamesh
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Post#47 » Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:09 am

Again, I haven’t played the Tholians in a while but my guess is that the Diamond Flame and the Crystal Thunder are worth building throughout the game, whereas the Bloodfang is a piece of crap at anytime. So the PBP thing hits the Tholians worse than it does the Privs, as the Privs are still cranking out MCBRs late game and not spending a lot of PBPs to get a build. A really successful campaign would ideally have the captured battleships killing the enemy on a pace that would result in a pretty consistent build schedule (Again, correct me if I’m wrong here – I have never played the Privs but I think this is how I would try to play them.)

As for the tow back to base, the easier solution is just to build a cheap base close to the front to re-deploy quickly. I bet you do that already though, :lol: I do it for fast repair of battle damage.

Cheers

Jim
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Cherek
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Post#48 » Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:23 am

B A N E wrote:One thing about the Phost queue system...
Love or hate it, you don't change your builds at the last minute!

end of the line for you!
I think that only happens when the PAL build queue is used. I've been too chicken to verify it when the the PBP queue system is used, which is the most widely used. I don't know what happens in THost. As a habit, I don't change it.

Here is another plug for PHost.
THost forces you to use your PBPs once you reach 21 PBPs, PHost allows you save up your PBPs. :D
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Desert-Fox
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Post#49 » Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:50 am

Havok wrote:Spacelord on the other hand doesn't cheat. It uses the RST file just like we do. No fuel appearing by magic on the ships or anything like that. It's a solid program.
Hmmmm...I'll bet it doesn't build tech 1 ships to fill the queue either to recyled later for points. Stuffing the queue...:thumbdown:
DF
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Gilgamesh
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Post#50 » Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:55 am

Desert-Fox wrote:
Havok wrote:Spacelord on the other hand doesn't cheat. It uses the RST file just like we do. No fuel appearing by magic on the ships or anything like that. It's a solid program.
Hmmmm...I'll bet it doesn't build tech 1 ships to fill the queue either to recyled later for points. Stuffing the queue...:thumbdown:
DF
It doesn't escort freighters heading into open space either. It doesn't planet hop. It doesn't always cloak it's cloakers. In short, it doesn't do a number of tactically sound things......
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Cherek
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Post#51 » Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:18 am

Gilgamesh wrote:Again, I haven’t played the Tholians in a while but my guess is that the Diamond Flame and the Crystal Thunder are worth building throughout the game, whereas the Bloodfang is a piece of crap at anytime. So the PBP thing hits the Tholians worse than it does the Privs, as the Privs are still cranking out MCBRs late game and not spending a lot of PBPs to get a build. A really successful campaign would ideally have the captured battleships killing the enemy on a pace that would result in a pretty consistent build schedule (Again, correct me if I’m wrong here – I have never played the Privs but I think this is how I would try to play them.)
Nothing too wrong with what you said.
Gilgamesh wrote:As for the tow back to base, the easier solution is just to build a cheap base close to the front to re-deploy quickly. I bet you do that already though, :lol: I do it for fast repair of battle damage.

Cheers

Jim
You are still talking about six turns from the time he runs out of fuel to bring him back to where you captured him.

To build a SB takes MC and minerals. I don't know about everyone else, but when I'm know that a planet is about to be taken over, I convert all my supplies into MCs and beam up as much of the minerals and MC as I can onto my ships.
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Gilgamesh
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Post#52 » Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:33 am

Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote:
Gilgamesh wrote:As for the tow back to base, the easier solution is just to build a cheap base close to the front to re-deploy quickly. I bet you do that already though, :lol: I do it for fast repair of battle damage.

Cheers

Jim
You are still talking about six turns from the time he runs out of fuel to bring him back to where you captured him.

To build a SB takes MC and minerals. I don't know about everyone else, but when I'm know that a planet is about to be taken over, I convert all my supplies into MCs and beam up as much of the minerals and MC as I can onto my ships.
Could be 6 turns could be a little more or a little less depending on how comfy you feel building a SB that close to the front, but for the Privs and Tholians I would think there are good reasons for taking the chance. The Tholians are probably a little safer with it as it can be protected with web mines.

As for the cost of forward starbases, one thing I did wrong in NF 15 was to keep hoarding my minerals at key Starbases to be ready for builds. I had enough mins and money at my HF for 5-6 Vickies in advance (love my Merlin over the Bovinoid planet next to my HW!), but I should really have kept enough for 2-3 builds in advance and trucked the rest to secondary bases or planets that were capable and well placed to build a new starbase nearer the front for repairs and cranking out poppers. Oh well - you learn as you go.....
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Desert-Fox
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Post#53 » Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:37 pm

his has been an interesting thread to say the least. If I remember correctly from some earlier postings Bane had said (and I agree) (Paraphrasing here) I don't have a problem with players building crap ships if they recycle them the next turn.

The PBPs are not the problem. The problem is clogging the ship queue for no other purpose than to deny others the ability to build. It is making use of a design defect in the game. I think the only reason it was never fixed is because Tim would have had to damn near had to do a complete re-write to correct the issue.

Let me pose this question to those who regularly use 'stuffing' as part of their standard game strategy: Could you win a game without resorting to building the small deeps and blocking the queue? I don't think so. I think the people who do it are more into the mechanics of the game (finding a flaw in design and exploiting it) than stategy and economics. I fear that a lot of people (and I include myself in this at times) lose sight of the whole game and concentrate on one single part...in this case shipbuilding and clogging the queue vs economics, shipbuilding and strategy.

Maybe I am in a minority here but I think a player with a sound economy, a good plan and wise shipbuilding will beat the 'stuffer' damn near everytime.

Everybody has their own spin on this thread and this is mine.

Oh yeah, one more thing...and this is a question concerning VGAP 4, in relation to this thread...I own VGAP 4 but don't really care for it. Be that as it may, does this issue exist in VGAP4 or was it rectified when Tim wrote the new version?

:bang: Let the tirades begin!!! :stirthepot:

DF
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Gilgamesh
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Post#54 » Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:56 pm

Hi DF – agreed – a very interesting debate. Just to reply to the (very good) points you made (no tirades):

Agreed that if a player depends on manipulating the ship queue alone they will not prevail. Understanding how the queue works and using it to advantage is just one part of the game but it IS a part of the game. The game has rules and to know them and make use of them is just good sense.

About denying others the ability to build, this is a secondary consequence of the strategy. The primary objective is to work your own PBPs to advantage. But let’s assume for the moment that it is used to deny a shipslot to another player. Isn’t it better to have a junk SDSF at your base than a brand new Gorbie at your enemy’s base? Have you ever raised the taxes on a world you were about to lose to 100% just to deny your enemy the use of it? Making resources useless to your opponent is a valid and historic tactic (just ask Napoleon if it works!). A shipslot is a resource. You might argue that manipulation of the shipslots is artificial but so too is the 500 ship limit and PBPs in general.

I would not build SDSFs exclusively in this way. If I can crank out a battleship or popper (anything strategically useful) then I will, but if I can’t – then a junk ship to be recycled next turn or 10 turns from now when it fits with my PBP count is legal, acceptable and tactically sound, IMHO.

Great discussion!

Gilgamesh
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Shardin5
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Post#55 » Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:58 pm

As the Tholian commander you have to have foward SB's if for nothing else to recrew and fix captured ships, never did understand how a planet with 1 clan can recrew ships that need 250 crew members. As for 6 turns to drain and recrewl a Gorbie/Golem/Cube/Virgo/Instruments and any other Large GAS tank ship, that is wishful thinking, it can take over 6 turns just to drain the bad boy. The Diamond Flame and Crystal Thunder are very Valuable ships, and should be made throughout the game, problem is The Tholian's get screwed on THOST PBP's, now in PHOST, you can get points for everything you do, like laying webs, mines, building as well as fighting, so the Races how work the Economy and Empire building get rewarded for it, where those who build a fleet of sdsf, for nothing more clogging the que don't get crap, they can recycle but they haven't done enough, in real game mode, they never GET a build. For the game that Sherek is talking about, I don't see why it can't be torpers vs fighter Races, but his game.
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Gilgamesh
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Post#56 » Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:04 pm

Hi Enemy 1.

I think the 6 turn example was from the point at which it was fully drained.

I haven't played Phost and everything I keep hearing about it makes me want to stay with Thost, but maybe that's just lack of real experience with it. Getting PBPs for minelaying doesn't make sense to me as minelaying has nothing to do with the build queues, but maybe this was an attempt to balance the things you are talking about.

Yeah - a crew of 250 or more from a 1-clan base. Maybe they keep them in cryogenic suspension out back of the repair bays? :lol:
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Shardin5
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Post#57 » Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:11 pm

No you don't get PBP's for layiing mines, or Webs or for building Fighters or for building your economy, what you do get is points for all of the above plus for fighting each turn, so 1 turn you can have 3000 points, next turn it can be something else depending on what you are doing, now the people with the most points get the builds, you only see YOUR points and Nobody elses(exept Allies of course). You get points for fighting as well.
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Cherek
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Post#58 » Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:12 pm

DF,
I really don't care one way or the other about "The Queue Stuffers", I don't do it. It's something that that can't be stopped or controlled unless you are using PHost.

The ones who do it, feels that the one PBP and freeing up a ship slot gives them an advantage. I was only pointing out how that recycling the ship free up a ship slot doesn't mean they'll build a replacement, it just means someone will.
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Desert-Fox
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Post#59 » Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:19 pm

Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote:DF,
I really don't care one way or the other about "The Queue Stuffers", I don't do it. It's something that that can't be stopped or controlled unless you are using PHost.

The ones who do it, feels that the one PBP and freeing up a ship slot gives them an advantage. I was only pointing out how that recycling the ship free up a ship slot doesn't mean they'll build a replacement, it just means someone will.
I'm thinking I need to get into some Phost and try it out...sounds like it offers and FIXES a lot of things....

DF
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Gilgamesh
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Post#60 » Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:19 pm

Enemy#1 wrote:No you don't get PBP's for layiing mines, or Webs or for building Fighters or for building your economy, what you do get is points for all of the above plus for fighting each turn, so 1 turn you can have 3000 points, next turn it can be something else depending on what you are doing, now the people with the most points get the builds, you only see YOUR points and Nobody elses(exept Allies of course). You get points for fighting as well.
Oh - sorry - I misunderstood whey you said:

"The Tholian's get screwed on THOST PBP's, now in PHOST, you can get points for everything you do, like laying webs, mines, building as well as fighting"

My mistake
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