Game Setup Discussion

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Olyrin
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Game Setup Discussion

Post#1 » Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:41 am

Eight No Frills games have been completed. The Fascists won one game. The rest of the games have gone to the big carrier races with three victories going to the Colonies. I only looked at the No Frills games due to the extra variables that the add-ons put in the mix.

I blame the universes and the relative simplicity of play of the carrier races. People like rich universes but normal settings across the board are more balanced. It seems that even the old veterans have trouble winning with the torpedo races.

Discussion, debate, ideas… :blah:
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anubis
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Re: Game Setup Discussion

Post#2 » Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:55 am

Olyrin wrote:Eight No Frills games have been completed. The Fascists won one game. The rest of the games have gone to the big carrier races with three victories going to the Colonies. I only looked at the No Frills games due to the extra variables that the add-ons put in the mix.

I blame the universes and the relative simplicity of play of the carrier races. People like rich universes but normal settings across the board are more balanced. It seems that even the old veterans have trouble winning with the torpedo races.

Discussion, debate, ideas… :blah:
A rich universe does give the carrier races a bit of an advantage, but not THAT much.

THe problem with a poor or even normal universe is the advantage that gives to anyone that finds a large population of Bovs. Most players prefer the advantage given to the large races rather than the randomness of the overpowering advantage a Bov planet gives in a poor game.

Personally, I have played in two N/F games right now, one of which is ended, one which is still going. In the ended one, the Empire won, but he was allied with the Birdmen (and to be frank, they both won as a team.) Without the Birds, I think the Fascists and I (the Privs) would have been able to give him a good run for his money.

In the ohter one (which is still going) the Lizards are far out in front. However, the rest of us still have hope!

All in all, I like the N/F basic game setup. It is reasonably balanced, and although the big races do have a bit of an advantage, I believe that it is not that overpowering.

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Havok
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Re: Game Setup Discussion

Post#3 » Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:04 am

Olyrin wrote:Eight No Frills games have been completed. The Fascists won one game. The rest of the games have gone to the big carrier races with three victories going to the Colonies. I only looked at the No Frills games due to the extra variables that the add-ons put in the mix.

I blame the universes and the relative simplicity of play of the carrier races. People like rich universes but normal settings across the board are more balanced. It seems that even the old veterans have trouble winning with the torpedo races.

Discussion, debate, ideas… :blah:
I agree with you, I've tended to go with a more Normal vs Rich in the more recent NF games. You shouldn't find any host addon's in the NF games though. They're designed to be Tim Basic. Usually the only thing I'll do to change it up is drop in a custom map, and sometimes put Sphere on it.
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Shardin5
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Post#4 » Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:12 am

Out of the Torp Race, the Birds if played right, have the best chance of winning. Surprised that the Klingon's one, but then again, when you look at the game page, he was in 3rd, so there must have been a vote or something. In No Frills3, I had twice the SB's, Planets and Ships, then the 1st place place player, who was boxed in and losing ships to me, but the Cylon ships carry a HUGE advantage in score over the poor old Tholian. No junk ships on my part either, except for a bunch of worthless Falcon's.
Game ended so we all could move on, but it still grips me that I was on the offensive, Cylon was holed up and Recycling and Colonizing Golems so I couldn't capture them, yet He was pulling away in score for the most part. :evil: :upset:
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Mika
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Re: Game Setup Discussion

Post#5 » Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:01 am

anubis wrote:Personally, I have played in two N/F games right now, one of which is ended, one which is still going. In the ended one, the Empire won, but he was allied with the Birdmen (and to be frank, they both won as a team.) Without the Birds, I think the Fascists and I (the Privs) would have been able to give him a good run for his money.
Now I have to throw in my 0.02$

I have to say that I had a really good starting position. I was producing Gorbies already very early and had around 20 when the limit was reached. And sure... the Birds and me won as team. But would you play the Empire without friends? That race is so extremely vulnerable that it almost hurts.

I could have played alone too... but only when I trade for some good minelayers. But knowing where you are (probes) I decided to have a friend and the Bird is just perfect. Against you I would have mined like crazy... the Fascists were too far away but whoever would have come for a fight... it was absolutely impossible to lose. The only enemy was the Borg but as soon as I had Resolutes I didn't care about them anymore.

The only thing I regret is that it didn't came to a big showdown. That would have been interesting. Death's Head and me always speculated that you (Priv), Feds, Borg and may be the Robots (minor races) would team up and use the chunnel device to kill us.




And to say something about the discussion here. I agree that normal universes are a nice challenge but as said before. One good Bov planet near the HW of one race and that game is more or less over. Last but not least carriers are also not really expensive. At least not when you play the Rebels/Colonies. Death Stars and Biocides are ugly beasts to build. The Bots are somewhere in the middle.

btw... looking forward to new games
and Anubis... especially for you
I'd love to see you joining the all the marbles 2 game :)

Cheers
Mika
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B A N E
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Post#6 » Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:10 am

A bovie in a rare game might be somewhat unequalizing, but not in a normal.

Some problems:
1: Too much cash to start...drop to $5k
2: Too many minerals...drop to normal.
3: Not enough economic work being done.
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Mika
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Post#7 » Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:44 pm

B A N E wrote:A bovie in a rare game might be somewhat unequalizing, but not in a normal.

Some problems:
1: Too much cash to start...drop to $5k
2: Too many minerals...drop to normal.
3: Not enough economic work being done.
Point 3 has not really much to do with the host setup.
That only means that most players are just weak players that can not use the advantages of the economical stronger races.

Playing carrier races is just easier... may be you have a very slight advantage (assuming good players on both sides) but a good Lizard can win a game at any time.

Dropping the HW population to a very low level might help too... 1mio should be enough. That gives the Fascists and Lizards a boost, it also helps the Feds with their 200% tax bonus. And it makes expanding more difficult. With just 10,000 clans you can't just send out 5 LDSFs and then even send more to the one or other good planet.

May be such a slower economy would make medium ships and weaker torpers (Deth Specula, T-rex, Missouri, Darkwing, Resolute, Vicky, even the Emerald or Diamond Flame) better and more valuable ships. It would be a nice idea for examle to send out two or three deth speculas or resolutes before your enemy can build and equip the first big carrier.
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Captain Blood
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Post#8 » Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:04 pm

To set up a fair game ain´t easy as it is a combination of many factors where some have been mentioned above. In general there are no right or wrong settings. It´s the combination of them all that makes a game more or less balanced. The races will no matter what settings newer be equal in strengt.

I might mention a few more factors influencing the game like the distance of the HW´s.

Who are favored by a specific range depends much on the rest of the setup however. Only sure thing is that long distance allows everybody to build something big.

Another factor who are in some way related to the distance of the HW´s are there position at the map. Especially in those games witout sphere. Positioning the HW´s to close to the edge favors the races capable of taking advantage of the huge empty space in the center.

Limiting the HW´s population to 1 mio. do not strengten the torpedo races especially not the Lizards as mentioned by someone earlier. 1 mio = 10.000 MC. What should the lizard do with his hiss ships?

The strengt of the carrier races are very much decided by the amount of minerals avaliable, as the carriers are less costly to build than all the big torpedo ships (assuming lasers and warp 1 engines).

If I where to set up a NF game. I would use normal settings, HW distance somewhere between 450-550.

Might considder making it uniform as well. Allowing each player to get the same startup. It have some drawbacks however. Like everybody know where to look for your HW/income once they locate one of those planets.

Random starting positions might add something to the game as well. Unfortunently that setup often position most of the players in one part of the map - allowing the remaining to share the rest. Since the host are doing the job of setting up the games it might be possiable to set up such a game as well. It might be nessesary to try a few times before a decent positioning of the HW´s are found.
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Captain Blood

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Mika
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Post#9 » Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:27 pm

Captain Blood wrote: Limiting the HW´s population to 1 mio. do not strengten the torpedo races especially not the Lizards as mentioned by someone earlier. 1 mio = 10.000 MC. What should the lizard do with his hiss ships?
Hum?
Just about the Lizards now.
You have less clans... that means you can colonize less or more planets with even lesser clans. Less clans means easy targets for Lizard ground attacks. Every new base is a potential new lizard base. And if you haul around enough clans to be protected from lizard ground attacks you get a problem on your HW.

And low population and low money also means that the Lizard can produce more money faster (hiss) and as soon as they have one or two medium/good money planets there are also the hissing ships.

Races like the Feds, Privs, Empire, Bot, Rebel, Colonies will have a problem with ground attacks early in the game. The Birds too but they can cause some trouble with their cloakers too. And the Borg are almost immune to ground attacks but will lose EVERY ship except a cube even to a stinky LCC that appears from nowhere.

Only the Fascists have less trouble (but are not really strong too) and of course the Crystals would be happy about every LCC spying around in their space.

Just my thoughts about the Lizards
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Ogie
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Post#10 » Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:30 pm

Personally I'd like to see all the large meteors scaled back. Adds too many minerals and unfair if your HW or best Native planet gets hit early on.

Putting the HWs on the edge of the map unbalances the game. Partly because some races can take advantage of the open center and partly because it puts a HUGE damper on early economic development. You only have half the planets to develop that are close to your HW. This is a major disadvantage to the early attack races except the Priv because of his mobility.

Dropping colonists to 1M would be a major advantage for the Borg.


Ogie

Ogie
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Post#11 » Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:35 pm

Ogie wrote:This is a major disadvantage to the early attack races except the Priv because of his mobility.
Ogie
Probably not a disadvantage for the Lizard with hissing and mining rates. But definitely bad for Birds and Fascists.


Ogie

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Captain Blood
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Post#12 » Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:22 pm

Mika wrote: Just about the Lizards now.
You have less clans... that means you can colonize less or more planets with even lesser clans. Less clans means easy targets for Lizard ground attacks. Every new base is a potential new lizard base. And if you haul around enough clans to be protected from lizard ground attacks you get a problem on your HW.

And low population and low money also means that the Lizard can produce more money faster (hiss) and as soon as they have one or two medium/good money planets there are also the hissing ships.
I was well aware you where considdering the LGA when you believed the Lizards to be more deadly with HW populations of only 1 mio. clans.

The most funny of it are that limiting the HW population to 1 mio. are a very effective way to make the lizard less powerfull. It favors the FED who might gain an income twice that of the lizard and everybody else except cyborg. Unfortunently it favors the cyborg to much as Ogie mentioned.

The reason are that the cost af the advantage are much greater than the advantage. Making a deadly weapon more deadly at the cost of the financial power of the Lizard don´t make them more dangerous.

With only 1 mio. clans the Lizard are limited to 10.000 MC, other races might find that kind of money also, even without hiss.

With 3 mio. clans the lizard can earn 30.000 MC and might considder hissing there HW as well for a fast start. Not many races earn 30.000 MC.

Already it is very difficult to move enough clans to defend against the LGA due to the 30-1. So why should the Lizard give up 20.000 MC or more a turn to make sure someone does not move a few million clans.

Assuming a neighbouring carrier race to build up planets for the lizard to drop clans on are optimistic. All planets will of course be build up with 100 clans or safetax. 1 mio. clans are enough for that. To defend the carrier races will tow some carriers to the planets between the lizard HW and his own making sure no fuel are avaliable for the LCC + lay a lot of small minefields. Depending on the planets found and the agressiveness of the commander of the carrier race. The Lizard might be facing a strikeforce of carriers around turn 15-25.

If the Lizard income are not more than 10.000 MC at that time they might be in trouble. With only 1 mio. clans to start with the lizard can not afford to loose 5000 clans with a planet either. Lizard will then be forced to engage in open combat if the carrier race advance.

If the Lizard look financial powerfull and more importent can afford to loose clans, it might be that the attack will newer come being to costly for the carrier race. Who will then concentrate on defending on that front. Trying to force the Lizard to engage in open space.

Most races are in trouble when neighbouring lizard and no one like it. The list of the troubled get shorter as mentioned above when the Lizards don´t have enough clans.
Regards,

Captain Blood

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Mika
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Post#13 » Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:15 am

We are still in the situation that it is very early in the game.
I said I will ground attack your planets and you will bring carriers between our homeworlds and lay small minefields. And you also drop at least 100 clans on every planet you build up... you even don't tax those planets to let them grow. I make one more step for you. I give you 200 clans on every planet and even 60 (!) defense posts on every planet.

Now you have to pay all those small minefields, the carrier/s between our homeworlds, you have to bring some money to those planets to get them up faster.

All I have to do as Lizard is to build two or three LCCs and fill them up with clans. That are around 1000 in total. The building costs are far below your carrier and minefields btw.

You can also imagine that I would never tax my HW population unless it is very very necessary. The 1000 clans are no real problem I think.

Now some combat calculations:
My three LCCs carry 870 clans. And be sure that you wouldn't even see anything of my race before the first lizards waves with his lasergun on your planet :wave:

I give you THREE planets with 1500 clans each (for taxing and new bases and such) and another 10 with 200 clans each. That are already 6500 clans. Sounds a bit too much but ok.

The three planets with 1500 clans each just need 210 (201 to be correct) lizard clans to kill everyone even if there are 60 expensive defense posts. And every planet with 200 clans needs just 30 Lizards (28 is the exact number).

3x201+10*28=883

I can ground attack ALL your planets with just three LCCs. 6500 dead... just 1000 soldiers gone on my side. And I also expect to get the one or other good planet in return, may be even one of the well protected bases. Your economy is ruined and if you don't want me to use your ressources against you you have to attack the planets and bases and that is costy again. Of course not if you didn't build any defense posts there but if that was the case I can attack almost the twice amount of planets.

And one more time. I advance cloaked! Assuming a not ugly bad starting position and a few planets around my HW so I don't have to show a ship in the first 10 turns you would get a nice surprise. I would build two freighters first... and then as soon as possible the three LCCs. Even if I see no neighbour I would send them into a direction where they should meet someone.

I can calculate 3 turns to find just one good planet. That means I can have my clans and two hissers (building one and towing the starting ship) there at turn 5. The first money should arrive 2 turns later and that means three LCCs are ready at turn 10 and could arrive in your area at ~turn 15.

I can set up my economy with 2 LDSFs and junk ships for hissing. Even 5000MC are enough for that. I have to sell supplies but it works. And all I have to collect until turn 7-9 (when I build the ships) are 2400MC. ONE medium planet is enough... even if I have to tax them down to 40 happiness points.

To defend everything you need your carrier (tech 10 hull and a ship that tows the carrier if you don't want to spend money for 4/6 transwarps). Your around 1200 defense posts are impossible. With 5000 starting money you can never get that... if we have 15,000MC starting money you can expect my LCCs to arrive at turn 10 or earier btw.

And if you also drop minefields now you need at least 200 mk4 torps to make a few fields of a size to stop a cloaked travelling ship. That are another 2600. Your defense is getting pretty costy... especially when it comes to the fact that you can't see the attack coming.

In a real game I expect that the resistance is weaker than calculated in my scenario. That could only work if you have an 8mio bovinoid unity planet next to your HW and tax them down to 40 AND sell all supplies.

May be with the Feds you can set up that defense... but you still don't see me coming and to be honest. Without any sign of danger you would be the only player I know who spends all the money in defending instead of new ships/expandin. and when you notice what is happening it is by far too late to do anything. The attack in turn 10 - 20 might not be enough to kill you totally... especially because it is very hard to kill your HW. But that attack will make sure that you will never reach a significant position in that game. But it will give me enough space to expand and to prepare for a real attack.

So when our discussion comes down to simple mathematics the race I would bet my money on are the Lizards. :toast:

My plan wouldn't work if I realize that my neighbour is the Crystal or the Fascist. I think the surprise would still work but a crystal would make the following turns a bit harder and a Fascist has less problems with ground attacks

Ok, that is really enough now :twisted:
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hennef
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Post#14 » Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:17 am

nice lizard guide. but not the topic ;)


first things first:

i think the basic-games are all right the way they are. i already won such games as robot and as lizard. i would like some more games with ES-bonus on. that gives some ships a way better use. shifts the shiplist a bit and gives you some new insights. i also agree to the bovs and sother good planets having great influence in poor games. but the natives always do their part. so i say, leave the nf-games as they are, but perhaps just change the scoring system. because THAT deffinetely favors the carrier-races.


on the 1mio-thing:

i agree to the statement of the lizards havin no bonus with 1mio ppl at their hw! they need many clans all around to be able to use their clans as a way to overcome their enemies. they will get less money due to hissing as well, while the borg wins the most. fed also has a better bonus, because he receives dubble the mones than the others. nice for them :) the lizard sure needs loads of clans to waste them on bigger planets. you always place enough clans on your good native-planets to get the best tax-outcome anyway. so there is easily 500clans there. the planets where you now spend signifficantly less clans, are the small poorer planets without natives. but they are not the target of a lizard attack anyway, cause they can be taken over with any lcc. if you want to do the liz a favor you should give em 10mio starting-clans. then he could always fill his ships to the max and drop them everywhere in full loads. that would suit the lizard very well.
one more thing. a carrier-race does not need more than 50 or 100 clans on any planet anyway, because they only need the mins and the supps.

my little excursion ends here. have a nice weekend!
have fun!

hennef

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hennef
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Post#15 » Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:26 am

i just recognized. i won the lizard game on a nother server. though i won with the lizards in daily dest - but it had teleport. THAT is a feature you want to have with lizards. take the base, get the clans, rinse and repeat!!!

but i won NFV with fascists instead and benefits (standard with ES on) with robos. both games were completely different.... but it wasn't to the settings that i won the games.
it was hard work :P
have fun!

hennef

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