Multi-Ship Combat

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Multi-Ship Combat

Post#1 » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:13 am

Is there any interest in new a game using either Killing Floor or Tactical VCR 2?
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Cherek
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Post#2 » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:24 pm

Possibly
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Cherek

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Burnerboy
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Post#3 » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:36 pm

KF is the one where all ships fight at once instead of one on one?

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Post#4 » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:37 pm

Burnerboy wrote:KF is the one where all ships fight at once instead of one on one?
Yes, both of the mods do that.
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Raven2
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Post#5 » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:45 pm

I'd be interested in such a game. I prefer Killing Floor since I'm familiar with it. I've never used TVCR2, but I'd be willing to give it a look.
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Post#6 » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:05 pm

Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote:Possibly
If it were FLAK?
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Post#7 » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:12 pm

B A N E wrote:
Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote:Possibly
If it were FLAK?
FLAK's still a beta. I wouldn't want to run a game in that unless everyone knew what they were getting into.
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Akalabeth
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Post#8 » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:14 pm

Not me.
I was playing around with TKF battlesim or whatever you call it. I put even strength ships against eachother, in the end one side would be completely destroyed, the other wouldn't even take damage. Usually if there were 3 ships a side, the side who's ship broke off from the main group first for no reason would be utterly destroyed. I dunno, I prefer the war of attrition. Maybe I didn't do a fair sim of it since I just had like 3 Gorbies vs 3 Gorbies and fights like that.

I dunno maybe if the fleets are more mixed it gives better results. Don't know. All it seems to do to me is to encourage the huge stack of doom.

But then again, I don't have any real game experience. Since the one game I joined was one I immediately dropped out of after I ran the sims. Also since TKF needs to be registered . . . .

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B A N E
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Post#9 » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:21 pm

Havok wrote:
B A N E wrote:
Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote:Possibly
If it were FLAK?
FLAK's still a beta. I wouldn't want to run a game in that unless everyone knew what they were getting into.
I definitely understand that.

Half of the intention of my post was to bait Cherek.
I know he, like me, wants to play a FLAK game.

My biggest objection to TKF & TVCR2 is simming combat.
It can be brutal (very time consuming) ironing out a good battle strategy.
The other objection is that both are flaky for me. :cry:

FLAK for the player is straight forward and sims are blazing fast.
(there I go promoting FLAK again!)
:lol:
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Post#10 » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:45 pm

B A N E wrote:
Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote:Possibly
If it were FLAK?
Then YES!
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Post#11 » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:50 pm

B A N E wrote:FLAK for the player is straight forward and sims are blazing fast.(there I go promoting FLAK again!)
:lol:
You don't have to sale me on FLAK. From the simming I've dome with FLAK and TVCR2, I'm not in a hurry to join a TVCR2 game, but I am dieing to get into a FLAK game. =P~
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Klauser
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Post#12 » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:54 pm

I generally prefer fleet combat to the standard one-at-a-time fights. Like Raven, I'm familiar with The Killing Floor (TKF), but it does have it's drawbacks:

- If you don't have a registered copy, you can't view combats after turn 20 (?). Many do get around this by sharing registration codes, but for obvious reasons I don't endorse this solution.

- It is DOS-based, and have to use DOSBOX to make it work in XP. Not a real problem for me, but some players I know don't care for the DOSBOX environment. Dunno how it works in the VISTA/Windows 7 environment.

- Like BANE and Akalabeth stated above, TKF simming is tough, especially when the battles are more evenly matched.

- In general, TKF seems to favor the bigger fleet in combat. In regular one-at-a-time battles, you can eventually wear down a single "powerhouse" enemy ship despite the fact that your enemy may have other power ships in the queue. In TKF, if your enemy has 2-3 powerhouses, they can mow down a larger inferior fleet without taking a hit. The up side to this is that if you're one of the major powers towards the mid-to-end game, you tend to take fewer losses in major operations.

I would be interested in hearing from players familiar with TVCR2 experience.
Klauser

"Any ship can be a minesweeper ... once!"

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Akalabeth
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Post#13 » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:14 am

Klauser wrote:In TKF, if your enemy has 2-3 powerhouses, they can mow down a larger inferior fleet without taking a hit. The up side to this is that if you're one of the major powers towards the mid-to-end game, you tend to take fewer losses in major operations.
Is that really an upside though? It seems to me that people on the losing end of the score will have even less incentive to keep on fighting. If its hard enough to fight an uphill battle and then on top of that you get to lose small task forces here and there without even inflicting a single enemy loss it seems a tad boring and unrealistic for that matter. I mean yeah 1 on 1 isn't all that realistic either but . . . and what about balance? Some people (not me specifically) maintain that some of the torpedo races are already at a disadvantage, is this lessened or increased with these fleet combat programs?

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Klauser
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Post#14 » Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:16 am

Akalabeth wrote:Is that really an upside though? It seems to me that people on the losing end of the score will have even less incentive to keep on fighting. If its hard enough to fight an uphill battle and then on top of that you get to lose small task forces here and there without even inflicting a single enemy loss it seems a tad boring and unrealistic for that matter. I mean yeah 1 on 1 isn't all that realistic either but . . . and what about balance? Some people (not me specifically) maintain that some of the torpedo races are already at a disadvantage, is this lessened or increased with these fleet combat programs?
Fair point - I could have said it better. I should have said it was an advantage from the point of view of the player with bigger fleets.
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Akalabeth
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Post#15 » Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:41 pm

I always wished there was a fleet combat mod that was more akin to the basic VGAP combat. Like basic VCR but with more ships. So maybe there are three to four rows of ships in formation and using FCs a person can say which row which ship will be in. Then when the fighters and the torpedos come in they target the rows in succession (ie fighters hit the first row then pull back). So first row gets destroyed then the second row then the third.

So that way a torpedo race vs a fighter race could have the torpedo guy putting some heavy ships out front to take the hits from the fighters while smaller, crunchier ships are in the rear lines helping to take down fighters. Meanwhile maybe the fighter guy puts his escorts out front to take the hits while his heavier carriers are in the back.

Of course depending on FCs maybe the ships all fight in the same line. Maybe sometimes it's more advantages to do one line than three ranks. So the idea would be that all three ranks can fire (depending on range, so just like normal VGAP the beams would be able to fire immediately, but in terms of torpedoes, each row would come into range of the enemy ships in succession), but only the first rank can get targetted by enemy fire. Or maybe, each row/rank by default holds 5 ships so with 5 ships per side the ships are all in one row. When you get 6 ships there's automatically two rows, when you get 11 ships there's 3. 15 ships should cover most battles. But if there's more than 15 then the ships are maybe added 1 at a time to the first, second and third row (so a 19 ship battle would be 7/6/6).

How ships within the first rank are targetted would probably determine a lot of the balance/tactics. I would think that not all the ships would target same ship because that would look a little dumb, at the same time the ships shouldn't be targetted evenly because that would make one-rank combat more desirable (to spread out the damage). Would require playtesting of some sort. . . .

It would also help if ships degraded in performance as they took damage.

I think that would be better than two wads of doom circling eachother. Basically two fleets of ships in formation closing to point blank range instead of one on one like the current system. . . . But then again I'm not a programmer so I can't implement the darn thing anyway.

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