Creating Criteria/guideline for voting to end a game.

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Post#46 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:11 am

[quote="Gilgamesh"]About the vote thing - again - one person or an alliance by themselves can't force an end unless enough people feel the same way that a majority want to end. We saw this in NF 65 - twice.

quote]

Without all the verbage that occured regarding that game...would you say the current vote process worked as expected?
been there, done that...

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Gilgamesh
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Post#47 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:31 am

Do you mean current as in the way it has always been? Yes. And that was verified by the second vote we had to submit direct to ][avok.
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Akalabeth
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Post#48 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:59 pm

Gilgamesh wrote:Do you mean current as in the way it has always been? Yes. And that was verified by the second vote we had to submit direct to ][avok.
Thing is people opinion's are influenced by the vote itself. Would half the people who voted to end the game wanted to have ended it without the vote itself? Nevermind the question of whether they would have voted the way they voted had they not seen what the tally was at that time. For example if the first 3 votes were all "no lets keep playing" votes would everyone else have still voted "yes let's quit?"

One of the arguments used post-game was that the "top three finishers" were decided. Well big deal. There were two major alliances in the game and points-wise they were roughly equal so how people figured the game was done is a little beyond me.

Honestly if this game is about controlling the echo cluster then no game should be finished before such control is established.

As for the actual vote.
Note that the mail-in vote for NF65 was 5-4, with the Feds apparently having dropped by that time. Which is certainly different from the 7-3 in the supposidely legitimate thread. So either someone changed their vote for the mail in, or the first wasn't legitimate. And if the first wasn't legitimate it calls into question the practice of using open-forum votes as legitimate means to end games.

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Gilgamesh
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Post#49 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:17 pm

I can't believe the conspiracy theory is still going....

Here's the email from ][avok. Check your inbox to confirm:

Greetings Players - There are 9 players in this game and I've now heard back from everyone but Akalabeth (the cyborg) From the 8 of you that have replied I received the following results. End - 5 Continue - 3

So - 5-3 not 5-4. 8 voters. The Fed dropped and you abstained or were too late to make a difference to a majority.

Original vote was 7-3, voting no were Shardin, Casebolt and yourself.

Samuel changed his mind between the first (very legitimate) vote and the mail-in. Check the threads for yourself to comfirm.

Mystery solved. No conspiricy. No fake voters. Just a load of griping for nothing.

Can we knock this silliness on the head now?
QI'DaS tuQ SoSlI'

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Gilgamesh
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Post#50 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:31 pm

B A N E wrote:It seems to me that the solution is simple:

Have some games that allow votes and
some games that don't allow votes.

Ask Havok at new game setup time to provide games with the options
desired (ie: length & vote). Game attendance will determine which
type is most acceptable.
And maybe some shorter games to see who has a limited attention span - like me. RCWorld runs games that end at turn 80 - no vote option on those as far as I know.
QI'DaS tuQ SoSlI'

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Akalabeth
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Post#51 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:48 pm

Gilgamesh wrote:So - 5-3 not 5-4. 8 voters. The Fed dropped and you abstained or were too late to make a difference to a majority.
Yeah my computer buggered up and I had to reinstall windows so I was out of the loop for a day or two (and missed my Daily Destruction turn damnit! :( )
Samuel changed his mind between the first (very legitimate) vote and the mail-in. Check the threads for yourself to comfirm.

Mystery solved. No conspiricy. No fake voters. Just a load of griping for nothing.
Eh, wasn't there something about Shardin emailing a guy and that guy saying he hadn't voted and yet there was a number of votes to indicate the contrary? Ie, someone voted besides him.


Either way, the current system is flawed in my opinion because voters are influenced by the polls themselves and any votes cast before their own.

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Gilgamesh
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Post#52 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:59 pm

Sorry to hear about your computer....

It seems Shardin's concerns were not a problem since everything balanced out.

I find it ramarkable that once one objection to the current system is disposed of another comes up. Now it's influence?

We're all big boys and quite capable of making a decision on our own, I think...
QI'DaS tuQ SoSlI'

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Akalabeth
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Post#53 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:03 pm

Gilgamesh wrote:Sorry to hear about your computer....

It seems Shardin's concerns were not a problem since everything balanced out.
Uh, so you're ignoring the fact someone not involved in the game voted in the poll thread?

The fact that a majority voted to end the game via email doesn't make irrelevant the fact that one of the votes in the forum was cast by someone not participating in the game. They're too entirely separate events.
I find it ramarkable that once one objection to the current system is disposed of another comes up. Now it's influence?

We're all big boys and quite capable of making a decision on our own, I think...
Aren't you the very one who said your opinion was influenced by the fact that Samuel wanted to end the game? Mind you, this was after your vote was apparently cast, but none the less. If you can be influenced after a vote you can certainly be so before a vote.

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Akalabeth
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Post#54 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:22 pm

Basically let's say this:

Why Open Forum Polls are bad.

1. Players not involved in the game can and apparently HAVE participated in votes. The fact that one offending vote in NF65 did not significantly affect the outcome is irrelevant, this poll is ultimately not about NF65 but voting in general and if the potential is there then its inevitable that at some point, down the road, the outcome of a vote to end will be changed by someone not involved in the game.

2. The vote is not blind. Players entering their votes have the potential to know the vote tally before their own vote is cast. This has the potential to affect their vote one way or the other. The fact that everyone on this forum is a big boy and can make their own decisions does not detract from the fact that people can and are influenced by other information. A person entering a vote where the current tally is 5-0 for or against will certainly have a different opinion than a situation in which they don't know any of the votes cast.

Basically if votes are to remain a staple of the game they should either be all in game or done by email. And if the vote is not a product of a pre-defined number of turns, then the person calling the vote should not voice any opinion other than their desire to call a vote. Though admittedly that alone can be influencial (ie, in NF65 the highest scoring opponent to the top alliance calling to end the game).



PS - Oh and my computer seems to be back to normal now. And it has a lot more room (rather than the paltry 2% of the hard drive). But thanks!

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Gilgamesh
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Post#55 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:03 pm

Akalabeth wrote: Uh, so you're ignoring the fact someone not involved in the game voted in the poll thread?
There is no "fact" here. The vote counts tally. I see no evidence for an outsider vote.
Aren't you the very one who said your opinion was influenced by the fact that Samuel wanted to end the game? Mind you, this was after your vote was apparently cast, but none the less. If you can be influenced after a vote you can certainly be so before a vote.
I said no such thing. I was the first to vote after Paladin. Don't just guess at this stuff and make an accusation - look at the poll thread. I believe I'm the second post in.

I was wanting to end the game long before the vote came up. If I hadn't taken so much crap last time I posted a vote I probably would have done it myself a few turns back. Sorry - like your conspiracy theories, you're way off here too....
QI'DaS tuQ SoSlI'

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Gilgamesh
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Post#56 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:07 pm

Akalabeth wrote:Basically let's say this:

Why Open Forum Polls are bad.

1. Players not involved in the game can and apparently HAVE participated in votes.
"Can" - potentially....

"Have" - in the case of NF 65 this was an unsubstantiated accusation made by folks upset that the vote didn't go their way and unwilling to accept the wishes of a clear majority. I guarantee you that if the vote would have been to continue none of this BS would have come up.

So please don't try to parley off angry guesses as if they were facts. K?
QI'DaS tuQ SoSlI'

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akshamu
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Post#57 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:30 pm

Gilgamesh wrote:
Akalabeth wrote:Basically let's say this:

Why Open Forum Polls are bad.

1. Players not involved in the game can and apparently HAVE participated in votes.
"Can" - potentially....

"Have" - in the case of NF 65 this was an unsubstantiated accusation made by folks upset that the vote didn't go their way and unwilling to accept the wishes of a clear majority. I guarantee you that if the vote would have been to continue none of this BS would have come up.

So please don't try to parley off angry guesses as if they were facts. K?
Maybe end of game votes should only be counted by actual postings that can be attributed to a player in that game rather than allowing anonymous polls that cannot be attributed to a particular player. That way there is no additional effort on Havok's part to determine the vote, and once more than 50% of the remaining players say quit the vote counts.
An Englishman is a person who does things because they have been done before.

An American is a person who does things because they haven't been done before

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Akalabeth
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Post#58 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:01 pm

Gilgamesh wrote:
Akalabeth wrote: Uh, so you're ignoring the fact someone not involved in the game voted in the poll thread?
There is no "fact" here. The vote counts tally. I see no evidence for an outsider vote.
Um, did not Shardin email a guy and did not that guy say he did not vote? And yet 10 votes were cast.
Aren't you the very one who said your opinion was influenced by the fact that Samuel wanted to end the game? Mind you, this was after your vote was apparently cast, but none the less. If you can be influenced after a vote you can certainly be so before a vote.
I said no such thing. I was the first to vote after Paladin. Don't just guess at this stuff and make an accusation - look at the poll thread. I believe I'm the second post in.

Read what I said a little harder, I said you cited influence of another player's decision after your vote had been cast, namely #3 below:
First off, I wasn't having a lot of fun with the Birds but was willing to stick it out even though I was getting clobbered for the last while. But when the vote came up, I was happy to vote to end.

Second, I can't see the top 3 changing, and to drag everyone through another 20 or 30 turns for the same result is a bit ridiculous and a waste of everyone's time.

Third, the guy in first place apparantly voted to end....
Or in other words "Samuel voted to end, his opinion influences my own to reinforce my vote"

Gilgamesh wrote: "Can" - potentially....

"Have" - in the case of NF 65 this was an unsubstantiated accusation made by folks upset that the vote didn't go their way and unwilling to accept the wishes of a clear majority. I guarantee you that if the vote would have been to continue none of this BS would have come up.

So please don't try to parley off angry guesses as if they were facts. K?
Who's angry? I'm not. I'm simply explaining the flaws of the current system.

Shardin quoted an email he got from one of the players, in that email the player said he had not cast a vote. Yet 10 votes were cast. As below:
Below is an complete email Thread between myself and Hoodlam.

Tried to put in a vote to end the game (a mercy ending for me..lol) but i couldn't get logged on. If you get the opportunity perhaps you could put that on the there for me and that i vote to end the game.

In a message dated 2/16/2010 4:07:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dnorval@yahoo.com writes:
Have you voted in the poll to end the game?
Hats off to you for sticking in the game as it is, but I was wondering if you had voted in the forum poll to end the game or not.

Regards
Daryl
Cylon player
The fact that he would've voted to end is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that he did not vote, and yet someone else apparently did.

I don't care about NF65. I'm talking about the voting process in general.

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Logain
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Post#59 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:28 pm

:chair: :dh:

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Gilgamesh
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Post#60 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:42 pm

Logain wrote::chair: :dh:
Couldn't have said it better. How can you argue logic with a guy who thinks a vote that was cast AFTER I cast my vote could possibly have influenced my vote? Maybe a rift in the space time continuum???

Is there any point continuing here or are we going to keep on going around in ever decreasing circles until we disappear up our own butts?
QI'DaS tuQ SoSlI'

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