Alpha Quadrant: Maquis Fix

Moderators: BitMask, Havok

User avatar
Logain
Posts: 720

Alpha Quadrant: Maquis Fix

Post#1 » Fri May 29, 2015 10:35 am

We got off topic on Fexer's request for a new AQ game in our discussion of the potential fixes to make the Maquis a viable race in the scenario. I have captured the discussion points so far below so we can keep beating this horse in its own thread. Specific discussion started with a comment from dark monkey and centers around the following response from Klauser:

"Once again, thanks to all you guys for all the Alpha Quadrant love.

The Maquis is clearly the week link in Alpha Quadrant. The question is how to fix it.

Thematically, the Maquis was added in last during development - originally Race 11 was going to be the Bajorans, but there simply weren't enough ship designs available to make a "major race", and besides, in the Star Trek Universe the Bajorans were not a major player much outside of Deep Space Nine.

So since I couldn't come up with another major race, I went for another minor race. The challenge was making it different enough from the other minor race - the Orions. Their ship list is fairly tailored towards their race advantage of stealing from other races. Since the only available race slot was Player 11 (the Colonials), I decided to make them a rag-tag expert fighter race.

When I considered the Maquis, to me honest I was trying to come up with an 11th Trek Race that would be worth playing. My initial AQ list had race 11 as the only race that could build fighters in space, and that would be their draw for other races to ally with. However, AQ works the best in a heavy mineral universe, so if you're a non-Maquis player it is really more convenient to just build them yourself.

A point we missed in our play testing.

One point to understand, I CANNOT reassign race abilities (Pillage, HISS! Rob Ships, etc) unless you use an alternate HOST program (PHost). And one of my goals was to make AQ usable regardless of HOST program.

One of the fixes most often suggested is to beef up the Maquis ship list, and I think that is the most reasonable way to adjust them. On problem is - like the Orions - the Maquis use a lot of ship classes "borrowed" from other races. If I beef up ... say ... the MARAUDER Cruiser, the Orions are going to get the same boost. So the ships to look at altering are the three Maquis-only classes: the LIBERTY, PATRIOT, and VICTORY.

MAQUIS SHIPS

The LIBERTY is a standard TL1 build, comparable to other races first builds. 'Nuff said. Since the Maquis have fighter-related race abilities, the obvious place to look at woulr be their carriers, the PATRIOT and VICTORY. If you're familiar with Tim's standard VGA shiplist, the PATRIOT is obviously a uprated translation of Tim's ship of the same name, and serves as an early build light carrier option.

So that leaves us with the VICTORY. Looking at all the mid-range carriers in the game, it is most closely matched to the Romulan's AERIE carrier. Both the AERIE and the VICTORY are have the lightest mass of the mid-range carriers - making them easier to kill, but the VICTORY has the least crew, making it easier to capture. The AERIE's weaknesses are offset by it's cloaking benefit, while other than the greater range (fuel tanks) the VICTORY has no offseting ability.

So the VICTORY would be my first candidate to consider changing.

NON-MAQUIS SHIPS

While I am not inclined to change the stats on any of the multi-race ships, it would be fairly easy to add/swap out another multi-race ships.

One idea I had was to remove the B'REL Scout from the Maquis ship list and give them the Orion's WANDERER Gunboat. Since it only has one engine it can't tow (HCONFIG), but it could give the MAQUIS greater scouting range.

Another idea that was floated was to give the Maquis a heavier cruiser - replacing the MARAUDER with something comparable to the SAURIAN, STORMBIRD, D'VISOR or K'TINGA. One feature of the AQ shiplist is I tended to give a race's medium class ships - like cruisers - many of the special ship abilites and adding those to the Maquis list need to be considered carfully.

If there is enough interest, I would be willing to consider other suggestions with the goal of coming up with an AQ 2.1 shiplist to help the Maquis.

For starters, I would like your ideas and suggestions on the following:

1) Changing the VICTORY's stats

2) Replacing/Adding other ships in the Maquis shiplist

3) Any other ideas.

Thanks again for all the interest in AQ, and I look forward to your suggestions."

User avatar
Logain
Posts: 720

Re: Alpha Quadrant: Maquis Fix

Post#2 » Fri May 29, 2015 10:38 am

Recommendations submitted so far included:

1) dark monkey:
Give the Maquis a carrier (a bit stronger than those of the other races) and
a cloaker (maybe like Fearless Wing Cruiser) with race plus ability of
the Klingons...they prefer to destroy and kill - to capture a ship
is more the character of the Maquis.

2) Raven2:
How to fix the Maquis? I don't think it's terribly difficult. They are the only "build fighters in space" race and they have the Military Freighter which as a fighter bay and a cargo hold of 1500. One MF can build 150 fighters in a single turn, provided supplies and minerals are available. Beef up the Victory with a couple hundred tons added mass, more cargo room for fighters and increased crew. Don't go too heavy....but give it some teeth. Also, remember the Maquis were a terrorist group in the Star Trek franchise. Who loves terrorists? The Romulans love terrorists!! So, give the Maquis the Aerie to beef up their status as a carrier race. Again, the Aerie isn't too heavy but it would fill two roles in the Maquis fleet -- cloaker and medium carrier.

3) Logain:
Giving the Maquis a cloaking carrier makes for a hellacious surprise minesweeper too... Great for spearheading assault groups against those pesky minelaying races.

User avatar
Logain
Posts: 720

Re: Alpha Quadrant: Maquis Fix

Post#3 » Fri May 29, 2015 10:38 am

4) dark monkey:
I wouldn´t like a race that depends on a good ally
and can only sweep mines but has no ship to attack with.
But if thats wanted by some players I expect them to choose
the Maquis next time

5) Logain:
Perhaps they should steal the plans to the Jem Hadar War Cruiser (SSD) which is a reasonably heavy 8 tube/8 beam ship with the obvious offensive threat??? Combine that with the ability to stealthily sweep mines and everyone will have to watch out for the random Maquis strike force. If you can meet it force-on-force he will lose. If you don't keep sufficient forces in the area, he will grab a lot of real estate before you can respond

6) bitmask:
If the idea is to have a medium race with guarilla tacktics, then giving the Maquis bigger ships is not the best option. With that in mind I would say you need to focus on enhancing the tactical side and with the limits of the race slot and keeping it Host compatible we need to look at ship features.

I like the SSD Jem Hadar idea. In AQ8 the Dominion did not do anything with these ships (From what I could see he did not build any) which is a pitty as this is a really great tactic. Combine that with the Maquis's B'Rell cloaker and you have some interresting oprions available without upsizing their shiplist.

User avatar
Logain
Posts: 720

Re: Alpha Quadrant: Maquis Fix

Post#4 » Fri May 29, 2015 10:46 am

A couple of corrections are due at this point:
1) In AQ8, the Maquis are not the only race capable of building fighters in space.
2) I misspoke on the capabilities of the Jem Hadar War Cruiser... It is a 6 beam/6 tube cruiser (got it confused with the Jem Hadar Warship).

User avatar
Logain
Posts: 720

Re: Alpha Quadrant: Maquis Fix

Post#5 » Fri May 29, 2015 11:01 am

I’m seeing trends of:
1) Give the Maquis a carrier capital ship that can stand up in a fight (e.g. improve the Victory hull)
2) Give the Maquis a more viable cloaker, possibly even the Romulan Aerie carrier which will leverage their fighter building and minesweeping advantage
3) Give the Maquis an offensive threat that is not a massive ship (e.g. a Jem Hadar War Cruiser (SSD))

I’d also like to recommend that a “terrorist” type organization like the Maquis might get a ground attack advantage (e.g. 5:1) since terrorist attacks are seldom advertised

Now start beating the horse again…
:dh:

User avatar
Klauser
Posts: 991

Re: Alpha Quadrant: Maquis Fix

Post#6 » Sat May 30, 2015 9:16 pm

Logain,

Thanks for pulling the Maquis Fix issue into it's own thread.

I have been tracking the discussions and suggestions so far. Here are my initial thoughts.

THE MAQUIS:

Maquis Carrier boost: Unless I see a better solution, I'm going with this one.

Maquis Cloaking issues: Some background: in AQ, when doling out cloakers to non-Romulan races I tended to play it very conservatively. In my initial playtest, if Trek didn't show a race with cloakers OR if Tim didn't give one to a race, they didn't get it. As I went final, I did make a few exceptions, mainly because of cloakers seen in TNG or DS9 shows. For example the Cardassian's KELDON or the Ferengi's B'RELL.

My intent was that the Maquis would be THE carrier race in AQ, however I am still very reluctant to share the AERIE outside of the Romulans. In Star Trek, we really don't see any carrier action (I'm not counting some outstanding Trek games). So if any race had a cloaking carrier - it would be Romulan ONLY. And it's stats were built to be mediocre to balance it's element of surprise. My general sense is that giving the Maquis a cloaking carrier - plus it's buid-fighters-in-space capability - would be giving them TOO much of an advantage.

That said, the comments about the Maquis needing some better ship capabilites is obvious. Based on the discussions up to this point, I'm looking at making these changes to the Maquis ship list:


- Removing the HENSLEY Tug and adding the Orion's DWARFSTAR.
- Adding the Klingon's D'VISOR (Glory Device) for some increased offensive/defensive punch.
- Replacing the B'RELL SC with the Orion's WANDERER GB.
<added later - can't believe I left it off the original post.>

And while we're talking about making changes to the Maquis, it may be time to make some adjustment to some other races:

THE ORIONS:

A question for Orion players. Does the WANDERER make the B'RELL a worthless build for the Orions? My original intent was for ORIONS to be one of the go-to races for trading a cloaker, and they could have several options - if their trading partner was a race with only a border agreement or non-aggression pact, they could trade a B'RELL with little risk. If the arrangement was more cooperative, they could advance to trading WANDERER's, or if it was a true alliance, then the METEORS could be on the table. However I've gotten some feedback from ORION players that the B'RELL was really useless to them both as trade bait and as a cloaking scout - mainly because their trading partners wanting a gravitonic ship. I'd appreciate your input here.

THE CARDASSIANS:

One criticism I've heard from Cardassian players is their one cloaking ship - the KELDON at TL10 - is too expensive to be of much use in the early game. I'm considering adding the B'RELL to the Cardassian ship list. It even makes some Trek sense (in DS9, Gul Dukat captured a B'RELL). Your thoughts?

THOLIAN / BORG / DOMINION: A general note as to why I'm reluctant to share ship designs from these races. In Trek lore, all three races were considered to be either starkly xenophobic (THOLIANS) or just arrived from another quadrant of the galaxy (BORG & DOMINION). So I built their ship lists with a minimum of overlap with the other AQ races to reflect that. In fact, if I would've had enough ship slots to build them their own freighters and support ships, I would have.
Klauser

"Any ship can be a minesweeper ... once!"

User avatar
Logain
Posts: 720

Re: Alpha Quadrant: Maquis Fix

Post#7 » Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:17 pm

Klauser,

Please excuse the multiple posts… My browser is limiting how much I can enter and still reach the submit button.

First I’ll address your comment about the Orions since I’m the resident Orion in AQ8… I have not built a single B’Rell in this game. The only ones I have in my Order of Battle were gifted to me by generous neighbors.
- From a trade perspective, I don’t like giving a neighbor a cloaking minelayer, especially one with a big fuel tank that could get him deep into my territory before he dropped a batch of minefields in my primary trade routes. Not really an issue since this was a 1-Ally scenario.
- For my own use, I would prefer to make a MBR which is gravitonic, has a bigger cargo capacity, and can tow. If I had a SB in the build queue which I couldn’t improve enough to make a low tech MBR, I would put a Wanderer in the Queue so he can get out there on one-way scouting missions. That has proven very helpful against the Ferengi booby traps that I have experienced courtesy of Race Plus (and BitMask) in this scenario. Any ally I might have in this game would get a MBR rather than a B’Rell for the same reasons.

Now the Maquis fix… If the Maquis were intended to be “THE carrier race”, you need to give them some teeth. The shiplist says, “The Maquis have a mix of good low-end starships from a variety of races. They excel at making the most of fighters and small ships of all types, but suffer from a lack of major capital ships.”

User avatar
Logain
Posts: 720

Re: Alpha Quadrant: Maquis Fix

Post#8 » Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:18 pm

One way to give them more teeth is to make their main carrier (Victory CV) lower tech with a higher capability similar to the Borg Diamond (Tech 6: 7bm/7bay/320KT/95 cargo/3 eng/410 fuel) or Dominion Jem Hadar Warship (Tech 6: 8bm/8bay/335KT/115 cargo/4 eng/390 fuel). Making the Victory lower tech lets the Maquis concentrate his resources on building more SB early to make swarms of these mid-weight carriers before the ship limit is reached. I’d recommend something like: Victory CV (Tech 4: 7bm/8bay/321KT/120 cargo/2 eng/350 fuel). This will let him start producing his primary hull (Victory) out of a SB for: 5942 MC (4500 Eng Tech + 600 Hull Tech + 235 hull + 600 eng + 7 bm) and the 321 KT hull lets him have enough mass to take significantly more hits in a fight (>320 KT take 1% damage per fighter hit while 320 KT<106 KT take 2%). I’d also recommend dropping the Patriot to Hull Tech 3 and upgrading the Patriot hull to 120KT and 50 cargo which will let him live longer in a fight as well. The Maquis will have to swarm enemies and build lots of ships early to survive.

I support replacing the Hensley Tug with the Dwarfstar. It could be used as a cloaking tow ship to break up enemy fleets in swarm attacks and could support forward logistics… Especially, if you would consider putting the one fighter bay from earlier AQ games back on it so it could move fighters (and sweep mines)

I like the idea of giving the Maquis the D’Visor to help with the initial punch of a swarm attack. However, that will also require an increase of both the Victory and Patriot cargo capacity to allow damage repair before battle if they are to be effective in that kind of fight. Unless the cargo capacity supports the self-repair, the Maquis won’t be able to take advantage of the D’Visor in his attacks.

User avatar
Logain
Posts: 720

Re: Alpha Quadrant: Maquis Fix

Post#9 » Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:18 pm

While I’d like to say replace the B’Rell with the Wanderer, I can’t support that… I’d rather have the cloaking minelayer at normal speed than a high speed scout that will only be a real advantage in the first 20-30 turns until I run up against an enemy on each side. Since the other ships will be slower, you can scout, but not exploit early finds in any significant fashion. The minelaying capability can be an advantage throughout the game.

One note about the shiplist on C-M… Half of the “Military Freighters” on the list are listed as having one torp tube and half are listed as having one fighter bay??? If it is a torp tube ship, the Maquis needs something to build lots of his “free” fighters on (e.g. the Fed Fighter Transport). He should also be the only race to get free fighters (in my opinion ;-). That will save him LOTS of MC compared to the big carrier races and let him build combat power quickly. Making the big carrier races pay for fighters would constrain their ability to make as many carriers which would go further to balance the game between the big carriers and the torp races/Maquis.

Final note: I still like the idea of the Jem Hadar War Cruiser in Maquis hands. May not make as much sense from the scenario, but it will help the Maquis escape punching bag status. If an AQ game made these changes, I’d be interested in trying the challenge at some point in the future.

Logain

User avatar
BitMask
Site Admin
Posts: 2318
Contact:

Re: Alpha Quadrant: Maquis Fix

Post#10 » Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:13 pm

Just a note. The "Military Freighters" that list fighter bay for some races and torp tube for other are all fighter bay. I say the same issue and it comes from an error in the original scenario documents for AQ. The shiplist correcly have the fighter bay some gameplay is as intended.

User avatar
Klauser
Posts: 991

Re: Alpha Quadrant: Maquis Fix

Post#11 » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:17 pm

BitMask wrote:Just a note. The "Military Freighters" that list fighter bay for some races and torp tube for other are all fighter bay. I say the same issue and it comes from an error in the original scenario documents for AQ. The shiplist correcly have the fighter bay some gameplay is as intended.
Exactly correct - the errors were in the original scenario documents! One more %&$#'ing thing to fix :wink:
Klauser

"Any ship can be a minesweeper ... once!"

User avatar
Klauser
Posts: 991

Re: Alpha Quadrant: Maquis Fix

Post#12 » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:19 pm

Logain wrote:One way to give them more teeth is to make their main carrier (Victory CV) lower tech with a higher capability similar to the Borg Diamond (Tech 6: 7bm/7bay/320KT/95 cargo/3 eng/410 fuel) or Dominion Jem Hadar Warship (Tech 6: 8bm/8bay/335KT/115 cargo/4 eng/390 fuel). Making the Victory lower tech lets the Maquis concentrate his resources on building more SB early to make swarms of these mid-weight carriers before the ship limit is reached. I’d recommend something like: Victory CV (Tech 4: 7bm/8bay/321KT/120 cargo/2 eng/350 fuel). This will let him start producing his primary hull (Victory) out of a SB for: 5942 MC (4500 Eng Tech + 600 Hull Tech + 235 hull + 600 eng + 7 bm) and the 321 KT hull lets him have enough mass to take significantly more hits in a fight (>320 KT take 1% damage per fighter hit while 320 KT<106 KT take 2%). I’d also recommend dropping the Patriot to Hull Tech 3 and upgrading the Patriot hull to 120KT and 50 cargo which will let him live longer in a fight as well. The Maquis will have to swarm enemies and build lots of ships early to survive.
I was thinking very much along these lines as well, but didn't consider lowering the TL's on the ships. Excellent advice!
Klauser

"Any ship can be a minesweeper ... once!"

User avatar
Klauser
Posts: 991

Re: Alpha Quadrant: Maquis Fix

Post#13 » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:22 pm

Logain wrote:First I’ll address your comment about the Orions since I’m the resident Orion in AQ8 … I have not built a single B’Rell in this game. The only ones I have in my Order of Battle were gifted to me by generous neighbors.
- From a trade perspective, I don’t like giving a neighbor a cloaking minelayer, especially one with a big fuel tank that could get him deep into my territory before he dropped a batch of minefields in my primary trade routes. Not really an issue since this was a 1-Ally scenario.”
Good point - this was exactly the kind of feedback I was interested in. Thanks!
Klauser

"Any ship can be a minesweeper ... once!"

User avatar
Klauser
Posts: 991

Re: Alpha Quadrant: Maquis Fix

Post#14 » Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:52 pm

Based on many of your suggestions above, I'm planning on making the following changes to AQ this week:

- ORION
-- Removed B'RELL SC from shiplist.

- CARDASSIAN
-- Added B'RELL SC to shiplist.

- MAQUIS:
-- Replaced MILITARY FRT with FIGHTER XPT
-- Replaced HENSLY TUG with DWARFSTAR XPT
-- Added D'VISOR CR
-- Modified PATRIOT CVL ship stats
-- Heavily modified VICTORY CV stats

Here's a quick snapshot of what the MAQUIS Shiplist is looking like:

Code: Select all

MAQUIS SHIPS        B F T  E Mss  Crgo Fuel Crew  MCr Tri Dur Mol
-----------------   - - - -- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- --- --- --- 
1 MDSF              - - -  1   60  600  250    6   65   4   4   6
1 LIBERTY RAIDER    4 - 1  1   77   35  245   24  135  16  22  12
2 OBERTH SC         2 - 1  1   35   45  110   70   70  17  19  13 *BioScan*		
2 PATRIOT CVL       2 6 -  1  120   50  140  172   90  45   5  35               <---
2 D'VISOR CR        6 - 2  2  190  120  230  362  110  71  42  43 *Glory-*      <---
3 LDSF              - - -  2  130 2600  600  102  160   7  85   8
3 FREYA TFORM       2 - -  1   35   30  110   78  110  17  23  15 *TForm*		
3 DWARFSTAR XPT     4 - -  2  190  320  230  122  280  43  62  15 *Cloak*       <---
4 FIGHTER XPT       2 1 -  1  140 1600  550  112  215  55  44  41               <---
4 VICTORY CV (new)  6 8 -  2  305  112  320  286  285 105  75  82               <---
5 STF               - - -  4  260 5600 1200  202  220  13 125  18
6 B'RELL SC         2 - 1  1   45   65  240   44   75  22  16  35 *Cloak*
6 MARAUDER CR       6 - 4  2  150  250  370  270  290  67  52  86
8 LAS               8 - -  5  920 2700  450  120  840 250 271 134 *Alcm*
10 ALCHEMY FRT      - - -  2   70  750  500   27  265  43  39  29 *Alcm*
As always, I welcome any input from AQ players.

[BitMask Edit: to display table better]
Klauser

"Any ship can be a minesweeper ... once!"

User avatar
Logain
Posts: 720

Re: Alpha Quadrant: Maquis Fix

Post#15 » Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:29 pm

Klauser,

My only feedback on the carrier mods is that they will not have enough cargo space to self repair after a D'Visor blast hits their enemy. That will result in the D'Visor having to be used during a prior turn which will allow the enemy time to self repair or the Maquis carriers will have to fight with damage from the blast.

Recommend adding enough cargo space to withstand one mine hit... Especially on the Victory.

I know that will require a bigger supply load, but the alternative removes the advantage of attacking with a D'Visor.

Logain

Return to “Alpha Quadrant 8”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron