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Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:14 pm
by darkdimensions
by shiplist design contest i mean, for a newer, more balanced, less absured, away with the useless in with the feared ship changes.

Tlist is alright, it still leaves many ships unusable or at least unwanted.

Strive for perfection.

Anyone have a text file of the original shiplist?

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:20 pm
by B A N E
Or a link?

If not, I'll go web crawling.
I know, I've got my old "fleets" pages over at Donovan's...
Not exactly what I'm looking for, but I can always oil my
joints for some data entry.

:-({|=

Re: Anyone have a text file of the original shiplist?

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:39 pm
by Sysop
B A N E wrote:Or a link?

If not, I'll go web crawling.
I know, I've got my old "fleets" pages over at Donovan's...
Not exactly what I'm looking for, but I can always oil my
joints for some data entry.

:-({|=


There is a ton of stuff in my FTP site. Feel free to look it over.

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:50 pm
by Klauser
I've been mucking around with different ship lists for quite a while and here's a few random thots on the subject:

- I TOTALLY agree with zaphod's comment about useless ships in each races buld list. When I was unemployed for about 10 months back in the early 90s, I taught myself how to modify the shiplists to give each race ships that; 1) where closer to the "lore" for each race, and 2) try to cut down on each races list of useless ships. The result of my efforts was my "NewHulls" list. While it was an improvement in many ways, it still had a lot of problems.

- One of the problems you have doing the ship lists is trying to get enough unique ships for each of your races. For example, I tried seriously to work on a Babylon 5 ship list, but for each of the major factions you only see about 2-4 capital ships. That plus trying to wedge a Babylon 5 race into a Trek/SW/BG race position gets problematic.

- As hennef mentions, I've done two separate Trek-based race/ship mods. Because of the many ships seen in the series/movies, as well as the related games - you can put together some decent, race specific ship lists. The mods I've done are:

-- The Original Series shiplist based on the old StarFleet Battles boardgame (see Zaphod - someone else does remember!). Races/ships included are Fed, Gorn, Rom, Klingon, Orions, Seltorian, Tholian, Lyran, ISC, Hydran and Kzin.

-- The NextGen/DS9 Era shiplist - currently being run in the Alpha Quadrant Game. Races/ships included are the Fed, Gorn, Rom, Klingon, Orions, Borg, Tholian, Dominion, Cardassian, Ferengi and Maquis.

-- Both these shiplists, Star Fleet Battles and Alpha Quadrant, are available for your enjoyment in the downloads area.

- Ship List Editor: To answer your questions, darkdimensions, My shiplist editor of choice is VGA Planets Mapper (PlanMap) by A.M. van den Bos. Be advised however, that while this editor is very simple to use, you have to balance Tim's checksum errors manually.

- Also, BANE, you asked how I worked the ship graphics into the PLN file. The short answer is I used PlanMap. I sent ][avok a more detailed explanation which he intends to post. I'll post it here if he gets too busy ...

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 7:22 pm
by Sysop
Klauser wrote:I've been mucking around with different ship lists for quite a while and here's a few random thots on the subject:

- Also, BANE, you asked how I worked the ship graphics into the PLN file. The short answer is I used PlanMap. I sent ][avok a more detailed explanation which he intends to post. I'll post it here if he gets too busy ...


I actually forwarded it to him. But feel free to post it if you like. I won't be home till 2:30am.

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 7:41 pm
by B A N E
Klauser,
A lot of what you wrote to ][avok, I was aware of when I did the
altpln replacement for resource.pln back in the 90s. After I had
completed the first altpln, I had to do reworksfor Alex Ivlev when
he was working on VPA and he wanted me to adjust the graphics
for the sim in VPA. The issues in Dosplan, VCR and VPA are why
I limited the palette (generally 5 unique colors per ship) selections.
I used editpln and learned a great deal of respect for mosaic artists.
Each pic I did, dot by dot.

What caught my eye in the AQ mod was the details you retained
but I did note color issues so I figured you had imported and I
thought I would ask.

The last major work I did on altpln was for Dale Pope's The Killing Floor.
I added things like the Narn Cruiser for the Gorn, the Cardassian
ship for the Crystals and a few other changes like cleaning up and
or redoing completely the fighter pics.

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 7:59 pm
by Sysop
B A N E wrote:Klauser,
A lot of what you wrote to ][avok, I was aware of when I did the
altpln replacement for resource.pln back in the 90s. After I had
completed the first altpln, I had to do reworksfor Alex Ivlev when
he was working on VPA and he wanted me to adjust the graphics
for the sim in VPA. The issues in Dosplan, VCR and VPA are why
I limited the palette (generally 5 unique colors per ship) selections.
I used editpln and learned a great deal of respect for mosaic artists.
Each pic I did, dot by dot.

What caught my eye in the AQ mod was the details you retained
but I did note color issues so I figured you had imported and I
thought I would ask.

The last major work I did on altpln was for Dale Pope's The Killing Floor.
I added things like the Narn Cruiser for the Gorn, the Cardassian
ship for the Crystals and a few other changes like cleaning up and
or redoing completely the fighter pics.


What I think would be great is a tool (Pay attention Merlyn :) ) That would let you build a custom shiplist from a database of races and graphic materials that have already been created. Is this something that could be done?

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:40 pm
by Klauser
B A N E wrote:Klauser,
A lot of what you wrote to ][avok, I was aware of when I did the
altpln replacement for resource.pln back in the 90s. After I had
completed the first altpln, I had to do reworksfor Alex Ivlev when
he was working on VPA and he wanted me to adjust the graphics
for the sim in VPA. The issues in Dosplan, VCR and VPA are why
I limited the palette (generally 5 unique colors per ship) selections.
I used editpln and learned a great deal of respect for mosaic artists.
Each pic I did, dot by dot.

What caught my eye in the AQ mod was the details you retained
but I did note color issues so I figured you had imported and I
thought I would ask.

The last major work I did on altpln was for Dale Pope's The Killing Floor.
I added things like the Narn Cruiser for the Gorn, the Cardassian
ship for the Crystals and a few other changes like cleaning up and
or redoing completely the fighter pics.



Holy ... crap.

So THAT'S who you are!! I didn't put 2 and 2 together unitl I read the last paragraph. I LOVED your PLN artwork for Killing Floor. I had done the graphics work for the Federation and Empire mod back in 94 and was feeling pretty hot about myself until I saw your Killing Floor work. IMHO the best PLN work done ... ever!!

After I got ahold of your PLN file, I studied how you did some of those ships, notably the Narn and Cardassian Cruisers, and went back and modifed the Trek graphics I'd done and released them with my Star Fleet Battles mod, and then the last couple of years working towards the Alpha Quarant mod, particularly the Dominion, Cardassian, and Ferengi ships. And, like you, I did most of the work on those new ships pixel-by-pixel.

Very glad to hear you liked my work ... nuttin' like praise from the master!

...

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:22 pm
by Sysop
I just love bringing people together :)

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:32 am
by B A N E
Klauser,
Good to meet you.
Thank you for the praise.
I initially did Altpln for myself because I despised the original v2/v3
dosplan graphics. When editpln showed up, I could do the work.
Too bad we couldn't access more colors per ship. :?

I've got a lot of hull shapes that can be derived from Fasa's game
that was similar but simpler than SFB. Fasa's game is what TimW
derived races 1,2,3,4,5's ship pics from.

Babylon5 (My fav tv/movie scifi)
Problem with trying to incorporate the Babylon5 ships.
They didn't show enough different ships of each race.

IIRC, 4 Narn, 4 Centauri, 4 Minbari, 3 Vorlon, 3 Shadow.
Misc other various races.

As for Earth Alliance, we could build a fleet.
Heavy Cruiser (ick)
Destroyer
Adv. Destroyer
Warlock
Excalibur
various other ships from "In the Beginning"
3 fighters (raider, starfury & thunderbolt)
Various freighters.
Jumpgate/Explorer Class

I would like having the various Bab5 ships in but I refrained
from adding them so as not to cause confusion.

I'd probably put the Sharlin War Cruiser in for the Crystal Thunder.

To do such, I would have to get a bunch of pics of the various
ships so that I can look them over really hard and have them
as a reference to draw from.

thinking i may be installing my WACOM before I buy a laptop...

I think seriously discussing ship silhouttes can wait till we have a fleet.

A bit later, I'll rework the bird fleet again, screen cap it and post it.
I C&P'd from another site the entire original shiplist and imported into
excel.

till then,

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:06 pm
by Rimstalker
how about some sort of a big cooparative thingi.
get all the people together that are interested.
make an auction for special ships/hullmass/launchers/bays/mining rate/tax rate/race abilities like in MoO II when creating your own race
get going with making the shiplist for your race
see what happens when it is finished, i.e. do battle sims

the hardest thing would probably be the weighing of the things to bid for.

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:50 pm
by Klauser
B A N E wrote:Klauser,
Good to meet you.
Thank you for the praise.
I initially did Altpln for myself because I despised the original v2/v3
dosplan graphics. When editpln showed up, I could do the work.
Too bad we couldn't access more colors per ship. :? ]


Amen... I felt the same way about the v2/3 PLN file. My first, admittedly feeble, attempt to modify the PLN file was reworking the Fed graphics. Ugghhh

I've got a lot of hull shapes that can be derived from Fasa's game
that was similar but simpler than SFB. Fasa's game is what TimW
derived races 1,2,3,4,5's ship pics from.


Yeah ... some of those FASA designs were sweet. I picked up the FASA Ship Recognition Manuals when the game was still available. They're still good to browse through on occasion.

Babylon5 (My fav tv/movie scifi)
Problem with trying to incorporate the Babylon5 ships.
They didn't show enough different ships of each race.

IIRC, 4 Narn, 4 Centauri, 4 Minbari, 3 Vorlon, 3 Shadow.
Misc other various races.

As for Earth Alliance, we could build a fleet.
Heavy Cruiser (ick)
Destroyer
Adv. Destroyer
Warlock
Excalibur
various other ships from "In the Beginning"
3 fighters (raider, starfury & thunderbolt)
Various freighters.
Jumpgate/Explorer Class

I would like having the various Bab5 ships in but I refrained
from adding them so as not to cause confusion.

I'd probably put the Sharlin War Cruiser in for the Crystal Thunder.

To do such, I would have to get a bunch of pics of the various
ships so that I can look them over really hard and have them
as a reference to draw from.


Wow ... I had forgotten about the extra Earth Alliance Ships.

A bit later, I'll rework the bird fleet again, screen cap it and post it.
I C&P'd from another site the entire original shiplist and imported into
excel.]


Wow, I'll be anxious to see the Boids redone!!

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:59 pm
by Klauser
Rimstalker wrote:how about some sort of a big cooparative thingi.
get all the people together that are interested.
make an auction for special ships/hullmass/launchers/bays/mining rate/tax rate/race abilities like in MoO II when creating your own race
get going with making the shiplist for your race
see what happens when it is finished, i.e. do battle sims

the hardest thing would probably be the weighing of the things to bid for.


Ohhh ... that is a neat idea.

Would you envision each interested person getting an existing race to revamp ... like Feds, Fascists, Empire, Robots, etc? Or would it be a create-a-race-from-scratch concept.

I think balancing the races would be very problematic with different developers.

Once method might be to have one "default" set of ships the same for every race, and each player would modify the standard list to their tastes with a cost for each modification.

Just a thot ...

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:34 pm
by Zaphod Beeblebrox
Klauser wrote:
Rimstalker wrote:how about some sort of a big cooparative thingi.
get all the people together that are interested.
make an auction for special ships/hullmass/launchers/bays/mining rate/tax rate/race abilities like in MoO II when creating your own race
get going with making the shiplist for your race
see what happens when it is finished, i.e. do battle sims

the hardest thing would probably be the weighing of the things to bid for.


Ohhh ... that is a neat idea.

Would you envision each interested person getting an existing race to revamp ... like Feds, Fascists, Empire, Robots, etc? Or would it be a create-a-race-from-scratch concept.

I think balancing the races would be very problematic with different developers.

Once method might be to have one "default" set of ships the same for every race, and each player would modify the standard list to their tastes with a cost for each modification.

Just a thot ...


I like the idea in concept, but do you have any suggestions as far as costs? That would be the thing to set down right off.

Another problem I see is that if you were playing the Robots, you'd give just about anything to have a torp ship that cloaked. It could have one beam and one tube as long as it could cloak and drop mines, right?

The problem is that a cloaking ship in the hands of the Robots could seriously throw off the balance of the game. It would be really unpleasant to have half of your freighters run into mines in one turn. Heh, heh.

How about a Gorbie with HYP drives, or a Cobol with a cloak, or any of a few dozen other really nasty combinations?

I'd like to get back to my original idea: Get some suggestions from people who REALLY know a certain race about what can be done to improve the fleet of the race they love. (That could mean making some of the ships more expensive, too...)

I'd love to have Cherek's thoughts on the Crystals...

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:24 am
by Shardin5
Why Chereks???? Viewpoint on the Tholians?? He isn't very good with them.