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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:47 am
by Zaphod Beeblebrox
the.Ant wrote:I have neither spend hours analyzing the shiplist nor am I an expert player, so this is just my personal opinion:

What I personally find really annoying about the Romulans is that they don't have ANY economic bonus. I mean 'bum' is a good joke.

Sure, the ships are cheap and they can be effective with cloak intercept,
but that's basically it. Cloak intercept.
You still need twice as many darkwings as the ships you want to take out. Which involves high logistics, because that also means you have to move twice as many ships to the same point, thereby you loose a great deal of flexibility.

Besides the low cost (and tricks like saving money through recycling), this still means that you have to build twice as many ships as the enemy if not more. Besides the cost-factor, this is also really timeconsuming. My point is, that yes the bird CAN be very powerfull, but they can also quite easily get "stuck". For example I played the birds in one game where I just didn't find usable native planets, those who had natives on them were all desert. By the time I got my economy going, the shiplimit was almost hit. Most other races (all?) have one way or the other to cope with such situations, but the birds really have a problem. All they can do is to expand heavily, which involves LDSF, which spoils the cloakingfactor.

Besides all shipdesign adjustments, I think the Bird really need some economic assistance, and if it's only a terraformer to make native planets more usable. Another possibility would be a cloaked LDSF but that might become a too valuable trading object, for example to the lizard.

However, I find it ridiculous that some people here are so eager to reduce the "disadvantages" of races like the colonials or robots (yes, they have useless ships, so what) while I rarely encounter games where those races face serious problems... on the other hand Birds or Fascists are seldom seen among the first places.


cheers,

the.ant
The Romulans are a tough race to play. So are the Klingons. They both require a lot of understanding of the game and how to put together effective fleets. I suspect that this is the major reason you don't see the in first place a great deal.

Anyone can get 'stuck' as you put it. Any race in a bad spot is going to have a hard time. That is just the way it is.

The redesign of the ship list is not about correcting the problems of one race. It is about getting rid of, or changing, ALL of the useless ships in EVERY race's fleet.

I'm not sure I agree that every ship in the Romulan fleet should be a cloaker. In 'reality' it would be sensitive military technology. Putting it on every ship in the fleet would drasticly increase the possibility of the technology being acquired, and used, by other races. This danger would be represented in VGAP by the cloning of ships.

I think you're right, BANE, about cloaking ships being a race ability for the Romulans. That would be nice. Although I can see a cloaking Patriot being a pretty nasty thing, too: How would you like to see a dozen Patriots show up in your home cluster in one turn? How about a dozen cloaking Instrumentalities?

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:44 am
by hennef
Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
That becomes less economical when the W1 costs you 50 MCr, 15T, and 5D. This is part of the solution to slot filler ships.
then i will build them wit s2 or s3. s3 sometimes saves you some Tri you know. do you want to make them even more expansive? why not make them all the same cost? ...
Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
And, in fact, an excellent response. You are posting EXACTLY what I wanted to see here. Discussions of what is good and bad about each race's list.
please join in and stop mentioning SLOTFILLERS at all. PLEASE!!! [-o<

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:55 am
by hennef
Rimstalker wrote:
Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
That becomes less economical when the W1 costs you 50 MCr, 15T, and 5D. This is part of the solution to slot filler ships.
Why? You are getting the ship parts back, so you save 8950 mcs. Oh, and of course you lose the 100-odd mcs for the Hulls.

What could be done to one of the useless ships: Turn it into a cloaking freighter. Big fueltank, 700 cargo and I am pretty sure it would be worth building.

...

And of course the biggest improvement to the bright heart would be decreasing its mass down to 49 (or 50?).
why do you want to drop the mass of the ship? further down you complain about the fear of minehits.... how does that match?

i like the idea of a cloaking frighter. like the rebels have the (useless atm) armored transport, why not give the birds a cloaked frighter with 500 cargo one engine and no weapons. base could be the bright heart.

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:16 am
by hennef
Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
the.Ant wrote:I have neither spend hours analyzing the shiplist nor am I an expert player, so this is just my personal opinion:

What I personally find really annoying about the Romulans is that they don't have ANY economic bonus. I mean 'bum' is a good joke.

....


cheers,

the.ant
The Romulans are a tough race to play. So are the Klingons. They both require a lot of understanding of the game and how to put together effective fleets. I suspect that this is the major reason you don't see the in first place a great deal.

Anyone can get 'stuck' as you put it. Any race in a bad spot is going to have a hard time. That is just the way it is.

The redesign of the ship list is not about correcting the problems of one race. It is about getting rid of, or changing, ALL of the useless ships in EVERY race's fleet.
which could just do the trick! it is in fact possible to change soome weaknesses/problems with a change in some ship-deigns. you very often see birds that use non-cloakers only in bigger clusters. including to not use LDSFs. giving the bird an unarmed cloaking frighter would surely give them an economic bonus they might need.
Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
I'm not sure I agree that every ship in the Romulan fleet should be a cloaker. In 'reality' it would be sensitive military technology. Putting it on every ship in the fleet would drasticly increase the possibility of the technology being acquired, and used, by other races. This danger would be represented in VGAP by the cloning of ships.

...
lets not be too realistic here ;)

the reason why you seldom see an noncloaking bird-hull is not only that they can not cloak, but also have no other purpose. they are just useless in the bird fleet. but giving the bird a much stronger skyfire for instance, as a kind of homeland-defender, would give that ship to the privs as well. so this is a very difficult terrain.

i would strengthen the death specula a bit. the fascists need that too.
convert either right heart or white falcon to unarmed transport.
one more bay to the valiant wind would be ok, too.

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:51 am
by B A N E
Hennef,

A 5th bay on the Valiant?
I'm thinking that would be too much.

Hmm, a 600 cargo cloaking freighter...
It would need to be a bird only hull.
That means: WhiteFalcon, Fearless or Bright.

One of the reasons I don't think ditching the White Falcon is a good idea.
It's quite useful as a long range sacrificial lamb and resupply.
It's cheap, it's got long legs and it can resupply other ships and
it CAN get there very early in the game as a towing freight raider.

Need to tow something out...might lose it? White Falcon.
Deth also serves that purpose at times but costs more initially to buy.

Rimstalker likes the Bright.
We both like the Fearless.
Not sure which one I'd pick...but I think it would need to be between
the White and Fearless.

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:39 am
by Rimstalker
Hennef, lowering the mass of the bright heart below 50 kts would make it a substitute for the component transfer of starbase+.

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:46 pm
by Shardin5
B A N E wrote:Hennef,

A 5th bay on the Valiant?
I'm thinking that would be too much.

Hmm, a 600 cargo cloaking freighter...
It would need to be a bird only hull.
That means: WhiteFalcon, Fearless or Bright.

One of the reasons I don't think ditching the White Falcon is a good idea.
It's quite useful as a long range sacrificial lamb and resupply.
It's cheap, it's got long legs and it can resupply other ships and
it CAN get there very early in the game as a towing freight raider.

Need to tow something out...might lose it? White Falcon.
Deth also serves that purpose at times but costs more initially to buy.

Rimstalker likes the Bright.
We both like the Fearless.
Not sure which one I'd pick...but I think it would need to be between
the White and Fearless.
If you were to make a change for a Large cargo, on lets say the Fearlessor the White, would that ship lose its beams and Torps?? If that is so, it would really be a tough choice as both ships have great uses, and The Idea of losing the Raiding punch of a Fearless, is kind of Scarry, as I use it for raiding and restocking of ships more than the White.
As for the Deth, IT NEEDS help, not so much for the Romulans as they do have the Resolute already, but the Klingon's need it in a big way.

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:19 pm
by Cherek
Enemy#1 wrote: As for the Deth, IT NEEDS help, not so much for the Romulans as they do have the Resolute already, but the Klingon's need it in a big way.
Well, you could drop it from the Romulan list, beef it up a little and keep it on the Klingon list

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:47 pm
by Mountjim
Hmmmm. Well despite my better judgement I guess I should PONY-UP and respond to your ideas in as much as I shot my mouth off and got this ball rolling. But first an unscientific poll of all the races currently being played by most if not all the respondants.
CRYSTALS 8 (We obviously have a serious CRYSTAL ADDICTION here)
COLONIES 3
BIRDMAN 3 (no surprise as this is the Birdman forum trying to fix the Birdman). side note Spaceant 2 Myself 1
FEDS 2
ROBOTS 2
BORG 2
LIZARD 2
REBEL 1
EVIL EMPIRE 1
FACIST 1
PRIVATEER 1
Admittedly this is a very small sample. Even so the trend is what you'd expect. And if it werent for Hennef the races at the bottom would largely be 0. Make of that what you will.
The original objective of the forum was to try and make the smaller ships more likely to be built and used. Again in that light;
1) I still think the WHITE FALCON should be a 1 engine ship. It's the same basic ship as the FEARLESS and the difference in cost is minimal. A reduction of 1 engine however, would make that difference meaningful. The White Falcon can be used for warship support while the fearless can assume the role Bane suggested as an early freighter raider.
2) A Cloaking Freighter, say 600 cargo, 1 engine would certainly help address the economic issues brought up by Spaceant and I would use the Bright Heart Hull to do this. While Rimstalker says the Brightheart is usable with the Hocus Pocus of building them and recycling them for components at specific starbases, this is a very limited, if clever, Exploit of flawed program development. The cloaking freighter would help improve the economic development problem of the Birdman, similar to Rimstalker's Brightheart approach, but at least the cloaking freighter would actually get used and would still be usable in later stages of the game as well.
4) The Deth Specula is an interesting problem. Like item #1 above, the difference in cost between the deth spec and the resolute is minimal. For 100 more MC's you add roughly 60% to the ship mass. Given an open slot your going to build the resolute. I do think the TLIST version of the deth spec makes this ship far more likely to be used by the Birdman and certainly of greater importance to the Fascist.
5) Bane's suggestions for the carriers are certainly interesting. I am not sure what a 4 FB cloaking carrier could take out, but it sure has to be a lot more than a 2 FB cloaking carrier. However, since torps are the Romulan Bread and butter the cost of fighters might make the carrier usage a bit academic depending on game config.

Again, the original suggestion was to improve usage of small and medium ships and I think the above suggestions help in that regard. Secondarily it would be nice to see some of the weaker races, Fascist, Birdman, Evil Empire have a little better shot at winning. Of course there is a dual edge to this; if the weaker races have an improved chance of winning, I may find it harder to select my favored race...... :D

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:06 pm
by Shardin5
I don't think its really an addiction, as the only diehard Tholians are Sherek and Myself.

Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:11 am
by Rimstalker
And what about me? I quite like to play them AND they are my favorite enemy :). My rough estimate is that I played some eight games as X-tals.

Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:32 am
by Shardin5
Rimstalker wrote:And what about me? I quite like to play them AND they are my favorite enemy :). My rough estimate is that I played some eight games as X-tals.
No offense Rim, I just hadn't noticed that you enjoyed playing them.

Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:38 am
by hennef
nice post Mountjim.

i did not get the poll-thingie though. what exactly is the number reflecting?

anyway, Bane, i did not mean to add ANOTHER fighter bay to the valliant. i just meant, that the +1 option (making it 4 bays) is a good thing!

i still like the cloaked frighter idea very much. it would have no weapons at all. it is a frighter and it can cloak. no need for weapons! i would take the bright heart slot for that ship. i do not see a good thing in the ship and think it is unbirdish in style too. the rimstalker-move is cool but not helpful in general.

imo the birds are like ... well, like birds :roll:
thes sit around, fly through the air and observe the world. if they see something shiny or of other interest, they take it!

the ships need to be durable in matters of fuel and cargo and the need some beams to sweep a bit. they lay some mines etc.... if it is getting tough, they get their darks!

well i am not the god of wisdom, but i think small tactical features should not entirely deny an oportunity to improve a race greatly.

Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:11 am
by Rimstalker
my guess is that he looked up the games on circus maximus of the people who post in here.

The more I think about the cloaking freighter for the birds, the more I like it. If the other races want it, they will have to pay a handsome price and have double the cost for cloning it (maybe up the hullcost a bit?). You could even make it one engine, so that it could not tow. And it wont replace the lcc, since it can not drop mines.

Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:00 am
by B A N E
I think the 600 cargo cloaked 1 engine freighter that is relatively
pricey is a good idea.

I would put it in the bright's spot.
While I think OotB thinking is great, I don't believe a hull design should
be created for specifically as a parts mover.

I am open to 1 engine w.falcons.