Size Does Matter Shiplist

This is the shiplist that is going to be proportionally accurate, and only able to be run on PHOST.

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Zaphod Beeblebrox
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Post#31 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:46 pm

Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote:
Sysop wrote:Maybe we should make 2 lists. One for TimHost and 1 for Phost... <Evil Grin>
Why do that, if the list is balanced, it shouldn't matter whether it is THost, PHost, FHost (unless it has its own ship list) or some other hosting program.
You missed one ][avok: FHost ought to have its own shiplist, too.

The list for PHost would end up being pretty similar to TimHost, I expect, with the exception that the Gorbie would truely be a monster to be feared, and the 'borg cube would be a seriously nasty customer. Though the Gorbie would eat it for lunch.

Of course, as far as the Gorbie is concerned, consider that The Empire only built two of them. With the massive resources available they only built two.

In fact, we might need two lists for FHost, really: One for TimHost and one for PHost. *grins like a madman*

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Cherek
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Post#32 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:51 pm

Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:You missed one ][avok: FHost ought to have its own shiplist, too.

The list for PHost would end up being pretty similar to TimHost, I expect, with the exception that the Gorbie would truely be a monster to be feared, and the 'borg cube would be a seriously nasty customer. Though the Gorbie would eat it for lunch.

Of course, as far as the Gorbie is concerned, consider that The Empire only built two of them. With the massive resources available they only built two.

In fact, we might need two lists for FHost, really: One for TimHost and one for PHost. *grins like a madman*
Let work on the TimList before we tackle Fhost. THat can be another forum topic. :D
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Cherek

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Sysop
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Post#33 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:54 pm

Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote:
Sysop wrote:Maybe we should make 2 lists. One for TimHost and 1 for Phost... <Evil Grin>
Why do that, if the list is balanced, it shouldn't matter whether it is THost, PHost, FHost (unless it has its own ship list) or some other hosting program.
You missed one ][avok: FHost ought to have its own shiplist, too.
I didn't. We have a list for FHOST. It's called CBlist. Large carriers for all races.
Best Regards,

Joe

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Post#34 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:57 pm

Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote:
Sysop wrote:Maybe we should make 2 lists. One for TimHost and 1 for Phost... <Evil Grin>
Why do that, if the list is balanced, it shouldn't matter whether it is THost, PHost, FHost (unless it has its own ship list) or some other hosting program.
The list for PHost would end up being pretty similar to TimHost, I expect, with the exception that the Gorbie would truely be a monster to be feared, and the 'borg cube would be a seriously nasty customer. Though the Gorbie would eat it for lunch.

Of course, as far as the Gorbie is concerned, consider that The Empire only built two of them. With the massive resources available they only built two.

In fact, we might need two lists for FHost, really: One for TimHost and one for PHost. *grins like a madman*

Combinations would have to be created to take out something that massive. Another thing that needs to be fixed Empire wise is the difference between Star Destroyer and a Super Star Destroyer (which is a joke by default standards).
Best Regards,

Joe

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Zaphod Beeblebrox
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Post#35 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:01 pm

Sysop wrote:
Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote: Why do that, if the list is balanced, it shouldn't matter whether it is THost, PHost, FHost (unless it has its own ship list) or some other hosting program.
You missed one ][avok: FHost ought to have its own shiplist, too.
I didn't. We have a list for FHOST. It's called CBlist. Large carriers for all races.
Yeah, sure, but I'll bet we can do better! (I haven't even seen CBlist yet. *grins*)

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Zaphod Beeblebrox
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Post#36 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:13 pm

Sysop wrote:
Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote: Why do that, if the list is balanced, it shouldn't matter whether it is THost, PHost, FHost (unless it has its own ship list) or some other hosting program.
The list for PHost would end up being pretty similar to TimHost, I expect, with the exception that the Gorbie would truely be a monster to be feared, and the 'borg cube would be a seriously nasty customer. Though the Gorbie would eat it for lunch.

Of course, as far as the Gorbie is concerned, consider that The Empire only built two of them. With the massive resources available they only built two.

In fact, we might need two lists for FHost, really: One for TimHost and one for PHost. *grins like a madman*

Combinations would have to be created to take out something that massive. Another thing that needs to be fixed Empire wise is the difference between Star Destroyer and a Super Star Destroyer (which is a joke by default standards).
I agree. A Super Star Destroyer ought to be quite a nasty ship. Not quite a Supercarrier, but pretty nasty.

In reality, there is no way to reconcile all the different races with their respective fiction. Consider the Federation and the Empire. The Feds built a device to create a planet from next to nothing. The Empire built a ship that could blast a planet into little bits. Planets are really quite large objects.

Now think about the poor Cylons and Lost Colony of Man. The Federation (and therefor the Klingons, Romulans, Tholians, Borg, Gorn, and Orions) and the Empire (and therefor the Rebels) have technology advanced far beyond the Cylons and The Colonies of Man.

The only thing we can do is try to approximate the feel of each race while keeping everything balanced.

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Post#37 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:07 pm

This could get really creative because with this listing we could update the shiplists to reflect the updates we've seen to the respective sci-fi franchises.

Trek has a new Soverign Class Enterprise

There was the boss Romulan Scimitar in the last Trek movie as well.

We've already discussed the enhancements that can happen to the Borg and Empire... and their are so many many more.
Best Regards,

Joe

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Klauser
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Post#38 » Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:10 am

Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
You missed one ][avok: FHost ought to have its own shiplist, too.
Zaphod,

I'm curious as to why you think FHost needs a separate Tim shiplist. If you scan throught the docs and detemine which hulls have Fhost special abilities, you can build a list that accomodates running in an FHost or non-Fhost game.

In fact, I've built a developers lists that descibes the default hull "slots" in Tim's list by ship name and what special abilities it has in TimHost, RacePlus, Starbase Plus, tachyon, and Fhost. I used to have one with Nemesis and Gryphon included as well, but have lost it. The only time it gets real problematic is when two separate addons use the same hull slot.

We also discovered several years back that Nemisis/Gyphon and FHost do not play well together. That may have been repaired in newer host versions, but if so I haven't heard about it.
condor wrote: This could get really creative because with this listing we could update the shiplists to reflect the updates we've seen to the respective sci-fi franchises.

Trek has a new Soverign Class Enterprise
There was the boss Romulan Scimitar in the last Trek movie as well.
Condor,

I attempted to do just that with my Alpha Quadrant ship list. AQ is set in the Dominion War era, and I intentionally did not add the SOVREIGN or the SCIMITAR. THe SOVREIGN because it was seen more after the Dominion War, and the SCIMITAR because it was a one-shot ship. But I did include the Romulan VALDORE Class ship (seen and Nemesis) and teh D'DERIDEX Class, as well as the Federation GALAXY, and the Klingon NEQ'VAR and VOR'CHA Class ships. I alos completely reworked the BORG shiplist to show the TACTICAL CUBE, DIAMOND, SPHERE and other Borg ships seen in Voyager.

Now, since we've seen a bunch of newer BG ships for both the COM and Cylons, I've been real tempted to do those as well...
Klauser

"Any ship can be a minesweeper ... once!"

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hennef
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Post#39 » Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:20 pm

Sysop wrote:
Enemy#1 wrote:I don't think so Zap. Plus there are a few of us that haven't had time to post our ideas about this, yet. I have been going over several Ship lists and other addon's that would make sense, on a PER Race basis. One of my questions about the shiplist have been the Borg Bio and the Empires Gorbie. The Borg having a carrier doesn't make sense, flying a fighter is not a collective type of action and the Annie should be a real Fleet Killer, and harder to make, but needs more mass and more torps and Beams, to make it that fleet Killer it should be. The Empires, Gorbie is a small moon, and also a Fleet killer in its own right. Making these fearsome ships fit into the Balance of the game would be interesting to do. There have been lots of ADD-on's to help balance out the game, but each of them has draw backs, but some of the more race specific aspects that don't unbalance the game and make sense to the race should be included if possible. I will give you credit with coming up with one of the best ideas I have seen in my 3 years of playing now.
I'm going to have to agree with Shardin here. When did you ever see a Borg fighter in Trek? Answer: Never.

But when the engagement at Wolf 359 happened, 1 Borg cube came in and wiped out 40 Federation ships before the Klingon support even arrived. The Annihilation needs to be a big badass ship.

In the same thought... An Annihilation wouldn't be but a speck next to something like a Deathstar which should absolutely be the biggest, and slowest moving, ship in the game. It's really more of a battle platform or a mobile starbase IMOP, and I wouldn't put transwarps on that bugger either. It's just to big.

While we're talking size comparisons, I've got a great link for everyone to look at. Some of you might already have this. It's called Starship Dimensions.

http://www.merzo.net/

IMOP, take a look and think about some of these dimensions and how they can be used for setting up this new and more accurate shiplist, while trying to maintain the balance too.
nice link. again ;)
have fun!

hennef

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Zaphod Beeblebrox
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Post#40 » Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:49 pm

Klauser wrote:
Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
You missed one ][avok: FHost ought to have its own shiplist, too.
Zaphod,

I'm curious as to why you think FHost needs a separate Tim shiplist. If you scan throught the docs and detemine which hulls have Fhost special abilities, you can build a list that accomodates running in an FHost or non-Fhost game.
Actually, I was kidding... :wink:

I'm pretty sure designing two lists is going to keep us busy for a while.

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Six_Of_One
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Post#41 » Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:53 am

Zaphod is right in that you are trying to compare apples and oranges when it comes to the diff sci fi series (gorbie v cubes etc)

Shardin will be quick to point out i had a lousy game as the crystals, but history shows i held out the black troll in the solar flare tourney, he was the fed and had some 300 warships.... as the crystal i had 50 warships and for some 40 turns i held my ground. I dont think the crystals need any changes.

I actually see little problem with the ship lists, in over a decade of playing i have found the best players can make any race formidable and win with them. Crappy ships are good for filling up the ship slots to stop the enemy building more, and are colonized later for build points.

Having said that, Armin Trott of Spaceport Hamburg fame had some of the best alt ship list games i have ever come across. There was nothing better as the empire when my moscow was a hyper jumping torp ship.

Engine shield bonus of 50% or more makes the crystals a force to be reckoned with as well as the feds kittyhawk and the empires ssc.

I would rather see the vga3 inteface revamped to suit the 21st century, and as such the vcrs with a more 3d effect. Along with that, the ships experience bonus from fighting as the norm would also help the game.

Starbases should also be able to hold their own better, considering the cost, ie 2 virgos not 1 to take a full tech 10 base down.

Tell me if i am wrong, but i always thought the darkwing was twice the size of the nova in the star trek series....... well thats the impression i got.

bugga, my 2 cents worth just ran out..............

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Zaphod Beeblebrox
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Post#42 » Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:25 pm

Six_Of_One wrote:Zaphod is right in that you are trying to compare apples and oranges when it comes to the diff sci fi series (gorbie v cubes etc)

...

I actually see little problem with the ship lists, in over a decade of playing i have found the best players can make any race formidable and win with them. Crappy ships are good for filling up the ship slots to stop the enemy building more, and are colonized later for build points.

...

I would rather see the vga3 inteface revamped to suit the 21st century, and as such the vcrs with a more 3d effect. Along with that, the ships experience bonus from fighting as the norm would also help the game.

Starbases should also be able to hold their own better, considering the cost, ie 2 virgos not 1 to take a full tech 10 base down.

Tell me if i am wrong, but i always thought the darkwing was twice the size of the nova in the star trek series....... well thats the impression i got.

bugga, my 2 cents worth just ran out..............
The problem with the ship list, as I see it, is one for new players. I still remember building a Scorpius in my first game and thinking, "Well, I can't see how it's going to perform well, but I just can't believe this ship can be as lousy as it looks. I'll just build it and find out." I was quite dissapointed, of course. Not being one to just throw in the towel, I didn't. But I will say I was quite frustrated.

That kind of frustration for a new player will tend to put them off of the game, I think.

As for recycling 250 SDSFs for the build points, well, I for one would love to see that come to an end. It's an abuse of the game limitations and mechanics. Yes, it is a necessary strategy if you want to play well. But that does not change what it is.

As for revamping the interface, well, that one's way beyond me. At least it is at the moment. :wink: Nice graphics would be great, but it wouldn't change the slow paced nature of the game. The people who would be most impressed by excellent graphics aren't likely to play VGAP anyway if you see what I mean.

I agree that SBs should be tougher targets, but to make them tougher would require them to be more expensive also, I think. And would also requre changes to the host that I just don't think will happen.

If you want to know the sizes of different ships ][avok posted a link somewhere to a web site with a load of ships where you can compare their sizes. Pretty cool site, really.

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Havok
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Post#43 » Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:36 pm

Regards,
][avok

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Six_Of_One
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Post#44 » Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:37 am

The slow nature of the game will always be there, new players probably tend to be those into strategy games/thinkers rather than those into fps and other action games.

Most games nowadays have a book/guide to playing....... perhaps all thats needed for new players is a quick link to the race guides some players have written.

Its a quick game to learn, but a slow game to master........ and after reading some of the discussions concerning various races ship lists, i am concerned about losing the balance thats there.

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Havok
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Post#45 » Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:03 am

Six_Of_One wrote:The slow nature of the game will always be there, new players probably tend to be those into strategy games/thinkers rather than those into fps and other action games.

Most games nowadays have a book/guide to playing....... perhaps all thats needed for new players is a quick link to the race guides some players have written.

Its a quick game to learn, but a slow game to master........ and after reading some of the discussions concerning various races ship lists, i am concerned about losing the balance thats there.
I don't. Nothing will ever replace Tim's shiplist unless Tim himself does so.

The projects you see before you are just that, and only certain players are going to uses the shiplist(s) that are coming out. :)
Regards,
][avok

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