Shiplist Talk

Post here if you are interested in the balancing of the Tim branded shiplist

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Desert-Fox
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Post#16 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:59 pm

Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote:Sometimes, less is more, but not when it comes to Frigates. There is only one reason I build an Onyx, to heat up a planet.
Exactly! I had forgotten the ONYX....same plight!

DF
Suck it up, Cupcake!

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Samuelt86
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Post#17 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:48 pm

The problem with changing the ship lists or altering the ships is that you are doing so with a narrow perception of the game. If you don't use or realize the strength of a ship in a particular strategy because you don't use the strategy or haven't figured it out, you can very well be eliminating what for some players is a very useful ship. My own experience is that every ship has a purpose or can be implemented into a strategy or style.

I don't really want to give anything away. I like for my victims to learn the hard way. Part of the ships I see mentioned for destruction or alteration, I find very useful as is. The reason, is that the group doesn't see the value a particular ship can offer. Almost all ships have a pretty good use to them depending on ESB, the race you are going up against or who your ally is. True enough, there are ships I would never build but I have been taught some lessons about ships and ship combinations/uses that I would have never put together because I thought the ship was worthless.

A case in point - is it really a bad thing that the Iron Lady almost always gets captured? Think about it. Can you put that in your strategy when playing the game? Would you want to give pbps away or re-take your ship? You might want a ship like that. And if you don't, then don't build it. Others do and will. There is a mindset that bigger is better and you want all kinds of tubes and bays. But the truth of the matter is that is just isn't so.

The game is pretty well balanced. You just have to play the race. Different races play with different strategies. You don't all need the same type of ships with the same bays or tubes. Your race advantages/disadvantages make up for the difference in ships. All races played well can win this game. Why mess with the ships?

Sam

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Cardno
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Post#18 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:38 pm

samuelt86 wrote:The game is pretty well balanced. You just have to play the race. Different races play with different strategies. You don't all need the same type of ships with the same bays or tubes. Your race advantages/disadvantages make up for the difference in ships. All races played well can win this game. Why mess with the ships?

Sam
I'm not an expert at this game, but i tend to agree. I have read ppl saying things like 'why build a serpent, when you can build an eros!'. The reason is simple, after building your starbase, you may have insufficient funds to go to hull tech 4, so a serpent that can hiss, will get you there that much faster. There have been times where i could only build a SDSF, but that ship has allowed me to collect enough nearby minerals to build a LDSF, which could then go and get even more minerals... The fact that i don't TEND to build sdsf, doesn't mean there isn't a time or place. By wanting to alter the shiplist, are we saying that the races are unbalanced? I think that's a key question to be answered. If that is so, then address those races first and foremost, rather than trying to change EVERYTHING all at once...

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Desert-Fox
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Post#19 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:55 pm

Samuelt86 wrote:The problem with changing the ship lists or altering the ships is that you are doing so with a narrow perception of the game. If you don't use or realize the strength of a ship in a particular strategy because you don't use the strategy or haven't figured it out, you can very well be eliminating what for some players is a very useful ship. My own experience is that every ship has a purpose or can be implemented into a strategy or style.

I don't really want to give anything away. I like for my victims to learn the hard way. Part of the ships I see mentioned for destruction or alteration, I find very useful as is. The reason, is that the group doesn't see the value a particular ship can offer. Almost all ships have a pretty good use to them depending on ESB, the race you are going up against or who your ally is. True enough, there are ships I would never build but I have been taught some lessons about ships and ship combinations/uses that I would have never put together because I thought the ship was worthless.

A case in point - is it really a bad thing that the Iron Lady almost always gets captured? Think about it. Can you put that in your strategy when playing the game? Would you want to give pbps away or re-take your ship? You might want a ship like that. And if you don't, then don't build it. Others do and will. There is a mindset that bigger is better and you want all kinds of tubes and bays. But the truth of the matter is that is just isn't so.

The game is pretty well balanced. You just have to play the race. Different races play with different strategies. You don't all need the same type of ships with the same bays or tubes. Your race advantages/disadvantages make up for the difference in ships. All races played well can win this game. Why mess with the ships?

Sam
Narrow perception of the game...Why? Is it because I think that a Frigate should be a Frigate no matter who's race it belongs to? Go back and re-read my message. I made no mention of adding tubes or weapons to existing ships. What I was speaking of is the LACK of crew, cargo space and fuel for Frigates. I don't want to create uber-ships and uber-races...merely to upgrade the ships to what would be reasonable for a frigate. The Vendetta has a crew of 79. Same for a Sage. A SS Frigate has a crew of 102. All WAY to small to make them an effective fighting ship. Add to that their cargo holds are 30, 50 and 80 respectively. They can't carry enough torpedoes to do most jobs effectively. Considering that the SS Frigate is the ONLY torp ship for the Empire you find they are hamstrung on an effective meaning of minelaying. The Deth Specula...crew is reasonable (240) but has a fuel tank of 140 (on a cloaking ship) ...too small. It sports 6 beams weapons and 4 torp tubes but can only carry 35 torps. What purpose is that?

Well balanced? No, it's not...it's playable because we work with what were given and we've all become creative in how we do it. I've played VGAP for a lot of years and I've played every race more times that I care to count. I don't build ships that are worthless in their present state nor do I build slot fillers to fill up the queues. I think people who do ruin the game for the rest of the people playing but that's another thread.

Sam, I'm saying fix the fuel tanks, crew size and cargo hold on Frigates and it will go a long way to improving the game by allowing the ships to perform the functions they were intended to do instead of being slots that are never used...BTW, I've only mentioned Frigates...

DF
Suck it up, Cupcake!

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Havok
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Post#20 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:06 pm

While on the topic. I've always thought that the fuel carrier's cargo space should be seperate from it's fuel tank. (wink DF). After all, does a fuel tanker on the highway or a fuel ship in todays oceans use it's cargo space to carry it's gas for it's motors? No they don't. The same should be said for the ship in the game in my humble opinion.
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][avok

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Cardno
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Post#21 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:48 am

Havok wrote:While on the topic. I've always thought that the fuel carrier's cargo space should be seperate from it's fuel tank. (wink DF). After all, does a fuel tanker on the highway or a fuel ship in todays oceans use it's cargo space to carry it's gas for it's motors? No they don't. The same should be said for the ship in the game in my humble opinion.
If it's reality we are talking about, let's address teh fact of the game limit and that starbases can only build ONE ship of ANY type per turn. That's not reality. A manufacturing facility such as a shipyard or aeronautics facility is about capacity and time. Reality would dictate that you should be able to build about 5 sdsf's to say, a T-Rex. That would more reaslistically address reality, AND make building these ships more likely.

My two cents worth.

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Havok
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Post#22 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:33 am

Cardno wrote:
Havok wrote:While on the topic. I've always thought that the fuel carrier's cargo space should be seperate from it's fuel tank. (wink DF). After all, does a fuel tanker on the highway or a fuel ship in todays oceans use it's cargo space to carry it's gas for it's motors? No they don't. The same should be said for the ship in the game in my humble opinion.
If it's reality we are talking about, let's address teh fact of the game limit and that starbases can only build ONE ship of ANY type per turn. That's not reality. A manufacturing facility such as a shipyard or aeronautics facility is about capacity and time. Reality would dictate that you should be able to build about 5 sdsf's to say, a T-Rex. That would more reaslistically address reality, AND make building these ships more likely.

My two cents worth.
We're not talking ships and trucks. We're talking SPACESHIP'S. How do you know what they can and can't build. I don't know of any starbases nearby that you could have gotten your facts from. So it's all speculation on your part south pacific boy!!! :twisted:
Regards,
][avok

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hennef
Posts: 2250

Post#23 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:11 am

you should have the choice to add or remove crew from your ship....

bang, job done. everyone is happy and able to waste more ssf against any ship it encounters.
have fun!

hennef

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Cherek
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Post#24 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:29 am

Samuelt86 wrote:Would you want to give pbps away or re-take your ship? You might want a ship like that.

Sam
Just for clarification, you do get 1 PBP for capturing a ship in a ship to ship combat, since host 3.22.008.
The line below is true.
The line above is false.

Cherek

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hennef
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Post#25 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:39 am

Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote:
Samuelt86 wrote:Would you want to give pbps away or re-take your ship? You might want a ship like that.

Sam
Just for clarification, you do get 1 PBP for capturing a ship in a ship to ship combat, since host 3.22.008.
seriously? i never heard or witnessed that???

but i also never see any sages in greater numbers :P
have fun!

hennef

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Cherek
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Post#26 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:32 pm

You will get PBPs for:

Destroying an enemy ship in a ship vs. ship combat (1 PBP for every 100 kt of enemy hull mass, rounded up);
Capturing an enemy ship in a ship vs. ship combat (1 PBP)
[host 3.22.008 and older];
Recycling your ship (1 PBP);
Colonising your ship (1 PBP)
[host 3.22.025 and older];
Setting off your Glory Device (1 PBP);
Destroying an enemy ship using Glory Devices (1 PBP for every 100 kt of enemy hull mass, rounded up).
An example of the latter: when you set off two Glory Devices with 'pop' and you hit two Cobols (115 kT hull mass) and a Cygnus (90 kT hull mass), you'll get 2 PBPs for the 2 Glory Devices, 2 x 2 PBPs for the Cobols and 1 PBP for the Cygnus: all together 2 + 4 + 1 = 7 PBPs.

You won't get any PBP for:

Surrendering a ship at a starbase (without fuel or with matching Friendly Codes).
Giving ships away using the 'gsN' Friendly Codes.
Destroying an enemy ship in a ship vs. planet/starbase combat.
Destroying an enemy ship in a minefield.
The line below is true.
The line above is false.

Cherek

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hennef
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Post#27 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:15 pm

nice to read all that. especially the pop-thingy ;) :roll: 8)
have fun!

hennef

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BitMask
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Post#28 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:31 pm

I Think here is the problem:
Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote: [host 3.22.008 and older];

[host 3.22.025 and older];
Is there a site who play with any THost other than 3.22.047?

I also would like to change some ships that I feel is is not worth the build (Most of the time), but I am only thinking of myself when I'm making that statement :wink: because it fits my stratigy.

I think there is merit in both options, and that is why different players play games with different setups.
Changing Tim's shiplist will never replace the original. Has PList or TList replaced the original?

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Cherek
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Post#29 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:29 pm

Louisvdw wrote:I Think here is the problem:
Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote: [host 3.22.008 and older];

[host 3.22.025 and older];
Key words "and older". The versions are mentioned on when host change to allow for the various addition.
Louisvdw wrote:Is there a site who play with any THost other than 3.22.047?
I think RC World uses 3.22.046
Louisvdw wrote:Changing Tim's shiplist will never replace the original. Has PList or TList replaced the original?
We're not looking to "replace" the original ship list, just a different list were the ships may be a little bit more even and do away with the "slot fillers".
The line below is true.
The line above is false.

Cherek

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hennef
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Post#30 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:33 pm

Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote:
Louisvdw wrote:I Think here is the problem:
Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote: [host 3.22.008 and older];

[host 3.22.025 and older];
Key words "and older". The versions are mentioned on when host change to allow for the various addition.
Louisvdw wrote:Is there a site who play with any THost other than 3.22.047?
I think RC World uses 3.22.046
Louisvdw wrote:Changing Tim's shiplist will never replace the original. Has PList or TList replaced the original?
We're not looking to "replace" the original ship list, just a different list were the ships may be a little bit more even and do away with the "slot fillers".
well sometimes they "back-change" things in updates. ibut i really do not know. and i like new ship lists. every time. especially when i can participate in developing them ;)
have fun!

hennef

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