Shiplist Talk

Post here if you are interested in the balancing of the Tim branded shiplist

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#1 » Sat Apr 01, 2006 12:53 am

Zap,

From time to time, I've considered doing a shiplist but it wasn't a thing
I spent much time on. IMO the biggest problems with the original list
are the dirt cheap junk hulls and broken hulls.

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Zaphod Beeblebrox
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Post#2 » Sat Apr 01, 2006 1:37 am

B A N E wrote:Zap,

From time to time, I've considered doing a shiplist but it wasn't a thing
I spent much time on. IMO the biggest problems with the original list
are the dirt cheap junk hulls and broken hulls.
Exactly. The broken hulls are really my personal pet peeve. There are just so many ships in every list that just aren't good for anything at all. Maybe what I need is a list of complaints about the ships of each race. I'm pretty sure I can draw up my own list of problems for CoM (Heh, heh) but I'd love to hear from people who have played multiple games with other races.

I'm not talking about a dream ship list. I want to know what would make those broken ships worth building?

For instance: The Iron Lady could be a useable ship exactly as it is except for a higher crew count. As it is, it is worse than worthless since it gets captured as often as it gets destroyed. Really, for a two engine ship and a Tech nine hull, I think I would give it 2 more tubes for a total of four. Conservativly, maybe one more tube and a reduction to a Tech 8 hull. But the thing it most desparately needs is a higher crew count.

Another thing I would do (even though it makes me feel queasy) is reduce the number of bays on the Patriot to five, or more likely four. That ship is just too powerful for its price. Seriously. Though I might increase the cargo to 40-50Kts.

On the other hand, the Scorpius would get at least six bays and 180Kts cargo.

The only way to do this kind of thing is by running many hundreds of battle sims, then actually playing a game with the list with experienced players.

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B A N E
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Post#3 » Sat Apr 01, 2006 8:36 am

In those three instance...fix the problem(s) only.

Patriot,
Up a tech or two.

Iron Lady,
Up the crew by ~50.
Still capturable, but not easily.

Scorpius,
Raise the fbays by 2 at most 3.

By raising Scorpius by 2, it beats a pat most of the time.
By raising by 3 bays, it beats Patriot all the time.
Any further and it would grossly unbalance against other races.
I wouldn't increase holds. 90 is enough.

But see the problem?
Different POV's would create a tangle of disagreements on how to fix.

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Zaphod Beeblebrox
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Post#4 » Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:58 am

B A N E wrote:In those three instance...fix the problem(s) only.

Patriot,
Up a tech or two.
Actually, on further consideration, with its small fuel tank and very small cargo hold, it's probably fine the way it is. I'd want to test it with only five bays though.
B A N E wrote:Iron Lady,
Up the crew by ~50.
Still capturable, but not easily.
I think 50 crew would probably do it, but it wouldn't make it a ship that was really worth building. See what I mean? I really see absolutely no reason for it to be a Tech 9 hull though. Higher tech hulls should be higher tech for a reason.
B A N E wrote:Scorpius,
Raise the fbays by 2 at most 3.

By raising Scorpius by 2, it beats a pat most of the time.
By raising by 3 bays, it beats Patriot all the time.
Any further and it would grossly unbalance against other races.
I wouldn't increase holds. 90 is enough.
Consider the cost of the Scorpius: It's four engines. That's 1200 right there. It should beat several Patriots in a row. To say that anything more than five bays would grossly imbalance the game is to ignore the Instrumentality. They are equivalant with the exception that I would give the Scorpius 6 bays to the Instrumentality's 7, and the Scorpius has a much smaller fuel tank. These factors would tend to balance the fact that CoM can produce fighters much more easily than The Robots.
B A N E wrote:But see the problem?
Different POV's would create a tangle of disagreements on how to fix.
Different points of view are, in my opinion, exactly what is needed, really. But there would need to be one person who actually makes the decision. Everyone gets heard, but one person decides. Benevolent dictatorship design. Beats the hell out of the way decisions are generally made in the corporate world. That's right, I elect me to be the dictator. 8)

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B A N E
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Post#5 » Sat Apr 01, 2006 10:16 am

Iron Lady,
The rebs would build it for sweep and fronting purposes.
So, the gain in crew would make it useful.
Less so for the Cols because of Ftr sweep.

Scorpius.
Think about this from the other race POV.
(btw, I agree, 4 engines on the Scorpius is dumb...drop to 3 or 2)

A 6 bay, 180 cargo, tech six ,colonial carrier in the early game?
Early game, how does a noncrystal enemy stop that thing?

Whereas, a 4b/5fb/90cargo is a significant improvement.
Run some sims with a 4 beam SS Carrier for comparisons.
As for fuel issues, CofM has the Cobol and Aries. Small tanks
aren't a real problem for them.

I don't disagree that the Instrumentality is overpowered at T6.

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Zaphod Beeblebrox
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Post#6 » Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:37 am

B A N E wrote:Iron Lady,
The rebs would build it for sweep and fronting purposes.
So, the gain in crew would make it useful.
Less so for the Cols because of Ftr sweep.

Scorpius.
Think about this from the other race POV.
(btw, I agree, 4 engines on the Scorpius is dumb...drop to 3 or 2)

A 6 bay, 180 cargo, tech six ,colonial carrier in the early game?
Early game, how does a noncrystal enemy stop that thing?

Whereas, a 4b/5fb/90cargo is a significant improvement.
Run some sims with a 4 beam SS Carrier for comparisons.
As for fuel issues, CofM has the Cobol and Aries. Small tanks
aren't a real problem for them.

I don't disagree that the Instrumentality is overpowered at T6.
I think we should move this discussion to the new thread I've created here.

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Cherek
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Post#7 » Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:36 pm

Where are we on this subject?
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Cherek

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B A N E
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Post#8 » Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:11 pm

Have you read through the separate race list forums?
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Havok
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Post#9 » Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:21 pm

Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote:Where are we on this subject?
This topic fell to the side when FHOST distracted us all in Wing Commander.
Regards,
][avok

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hennef
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Post#10 » Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:30 pm

and, was it worth it?
have fun!

hennef

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Cherek
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Post#11 » Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:01 pm

Havok wrote:
Commodore Cherek, IRJTN wrote:Where are we on this subject?
This topic fell to the side when FHOST distracted us all in Wing Commander.
And possibly WC II will do it too.
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Cherek

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Cherek
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Post#12 » Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:09 pm

B A N E wrote:Have you read through the separate race list forums?
From what I've read, each race still need to put up a ship list and the list gone over.
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Cherek

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Desert-Fox
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Post#13 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:25 pm

B A N E wrote:Zap,

From time to time, I've considered doing a shiplist but it wasn't a thing
I spent much time on. IMO the biggest problems with the original list
are the dirt cheap junk hulls and broken hulls.
One of my biggest gripes has been the plight of the Frigates in the game suffering from THREE serious problems. Crew size,cargo space and fuel.

Iron Lady - 99 crew, 60 cargo, fuel 210, weapons 8/2
Sage - 79 crew, 50 cargo, fuel 150, weapons 4/2
Vendetta - 79 crew, 30 cargo, fuel 140. weapons 4/4
SS Frigate - 102 crew, 80 cargo, fuel 180, weapons 5/3
Deth Specula - 240 crew (not bad), 35 cargo, fuel 140, weapons 6/4

In history Frigates were the independent operators of the fleet able to give a good account against equal or lesser odds. The ships mentioned above cannot be fought. They will be captured, so they are relegated to minesweeping and cannon fodder for carrier attacks. Both are necessary functions but because of low crew count, small cargo holds and no range due to lack of an adequate fuel tank, these ships never reach their full potential.

Not to mention some of the carriers...Was Tim on CRACK when he designed them? Maybe he should create some 3rd world (Banana Republic) race and just give the cast offs from all the other races to them.

DF
Suck it up, Cupcake!

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Havok
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Post#14 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:57 pm

Desert-Fox wrote:
B A N E wrote:Zap,

From time to time, I've considered doing a shiplist but it wasn't a thing
I spent much time on. IMO the biggest problems with the original list
are the dirt cheap junk hulls and broken hulls.
One of my biggest gripes has been the plight of the Frigates in the game suffering from THREE serious problems. Crew size,cargo space and fuel.

Iron Lady - 99 crew, 60 cargo, fuel 210, weapons 8/2
Sage - 79 crew, 50 cargo, fuel 150, weapons 4/2
Vendetta - 79 crew, 30 cargo, fuel 140. weapons 4/4
SS Frigate - 102 crew, 80 cargo, fuel 180, weapons 5/3
Deth Specula - 240 crew (not bad), 35 cargo, fuel 140, weapons 6/4

In history Frigates were the independent operators of the fleet able to give a good account against equal or lesser odds. The ships mentioned above cannot be fought. They will be captured, so they are relegated to minesweeping and cannon fodder for carrier attacks. Both are necessary functions but because of low crew count, small cargo holds and no range due to lack of an adequate fuel tank, these ships never reach their full potential.

Not to mention some of the carriers...Was Tim on CRACK when he designed them? Maybe he should create some 3rd world (Banana Republic) race and just give the cast offs from all the other races to them.

DF
:) I just wonder how we juggle so many pots and pans on this 4 burner stove.
Regards,
][avok

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Cherek
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Post#15 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:10 pm

Sometimes, less is more, but not when it comes to Frigates. There is only one reason I build an Onyx, to heat up a planet.
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Cherek

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