New ship list discussion

Post here if you are interested in the balancing of the Tim branded shiplist

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Shardin5
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Post#46 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:31 am

Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
Klauser wrote:
Rimstalker wrote:how about some sort of a big cooparative thingi.
get all the people together that are interested.
make an auction for special ships/hullmass/launchers/bays/mining rate/tax rate/race abilities like in MoO II when creating your own race
get going with making the shiplist for your race
see what happens when it is finished, i.e. do battle sims

the hardest thing would probably be the weighing of the things to bid for.
Ohhh ... that is a neat idea.

Would you envision each interested person getting an existing race to revamp ... like Feds, Fascists, Empire, Robots, etc? Or would it be a create-a-race-from-scratch concept.

I think balancing the races would be very problematic with different developers.

Once method might be to have one "default" set of ships the same for every race, and each player would modify the standard list to their tastes with a cost for each modification.

Just a thot ...
I like the idea in concept, but do you have any suggestions as far as costs? That would be the thing to set down right off.

Another problem I see is that if you were playing the Robots, you'd give just about anything to have a torp ship that cloaked. It could have one beam and one tube as long as it could cloak and drop mines, right?

The problem is that a cloaking ship in the hands of the Robots could seriously throw off the balance of the game. It would be really unpleasant to have half of your freighters run into mines in one turn. Heh, heh.

How about a Gorbie with HYP drives, or a Cobol with a cloak, or any of a few dozen other really nasty combinations?

I'd like to get back to my original idea: Get some suggestions from people who REALLY know a certain race about what can be done to improve the fleet of the race they love. (That could mean making some of the ships more expensive, too...)

I'd love to have Cherek's thoughts on the Crystals...
If you think a Cylon would be scary with a Cloaked ship what about a Tholian, NOW that should scare you. My Dream ship as the Tholian or as the Cylons would be a Falcon with a torp tube on it. NOW THAT would be a really cool ship.
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Sysop
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Post#47 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:50 am

Klauser wrote:
Rimstalker wrote:how about some sort of a big cooparative thingi.
get all the people together that are interested.
make an auction for special ships/hullmass/launchers/bays/mining rate/tax rate/race abilities like in MoO II when creating your own race
get going with making the shiplist for your race
see what happens when it is finished, i.e. do battle sims

the hardest thing would probably be the weighing of the things to bid for.
Ohhh ... that is a neat idea.

Would you envision each interested person getting an existing race to revamp ... like Feds, Fascists, Empire, Robots, etc? Or would it be a create-a-race-from-scratch concept.

I think balancing the races would be very problematic with different developers.

Once method might be to have one "default" set of ships the same for every race, and each player would modify the standard list to their tastes with a cost for each modification.

Just a thot ...
Sheesh!!! To much! I'm going to be giving away Star Wars figures instead of trophies this year!!!!!! 8)
Last edited by Sysop on Wed Dec 31, 1969 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joe

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Rimstalker
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Post#48 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:03 am

with the way shiplists work in thost (only a certain amount of special abilities), the bidding would have to be done in a set order - and race designers would have to bid on their respective place in that order, too.

As for insanly strong ship designs, I would use a simple multiplication to check a ship's value (like battlemass x (beams + launchers + bays) x 5 for every special ship ability x cargospace x fueltank / number of engines) and if a certain threshold is passed, the ship is illegal. Also the (modified) formula could be used to determine the cost in mcs. Somewhere out there, there are even games where players can design their own ships with a method similar to the one I described.

Another thought would be that every race's shiplist has to hold at least 7 ships that are worthwhile building - and that worthiness is determined by your fellow race designers of course.
Wirklich reich ist, wer mehr | Truly rich is, who holds
Träume in seiner Seele hat, | more dreams in his soul
als die Realität zerstören kann.| than reality can destroy.

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B A N E
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Smorgasbourd Fleets

Post#49 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:54 am

The concept while intriguing is rife with problems.
#1: Game balance.
#2: Logical costs.
Are two primaries.

Imbalance?
Simple: Put a larger fuel tank and cargo hold on the B200 for small cost.
If the B200 can carry say? 200 clans and HYP 3 times?
Borg everywhere.

Simple: Put a cloak on a Catspaw or an Emerald.

Cloaked Heavy Carrier

Gravitonics on a CV
HYP on a CV

HYP+Torp for Crystal or Bots (esp. Bots)

Logical cost of various special components based upon hull size?
Bigger the hull the higher the cost of the special component?
Do we limit weapon/bay count based upon tech level and hull size?
Do we adjust such specs based upon racial bias?

IMO, the original balance and racial concepts should be maintained with
an eye towards fixing the broken/useless ships.

A: Elimination/replacement of the SDSF and MDSF to end easy slot clog.
B: Adjust minimal necessary to broken ships like Red Wind.

While I could see setting up a game to play, I cannot see building
a shiplist this way.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
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and the truth.

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hennef
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Post#50 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:32 am

Sysop wrote:
hennef wrote:he, the kilrathi would be cool too 8)

how about the klakons from MoO. they are insectoids. their lack: they donßt have individual ship-designs #-o

uh the more i think about, the more gets into my mind....

but after Klauser made a cool Star-treck setting, i try to avoid that direction completely. but the only great tv/movie-thing with a great amount of various ship-types is babylonV as far as my mind welters.
Yeah the Klakkon's are an idea.. They had a clone of the Kilrathi as well called the Marshan... something close to that... You know MOO is the game that Microprose accused Tim of copying and took him to court over back in the early 90's. They said he copied MOO etc for VGAP. Tim won as he game came out like 2 years prior.
ROFL!!! man, those stupid lawyers.... ](*,)
have fun!

hennef

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Klauser
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Post#51 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:50 am

You're right, BANE. Designing a ship list by committee is problematic at best!

I think all of us paricipating in this discussion agree that each race could stand some ship adjustments, specifically by reducing the number of "stupid" ship designs

After reading through this discussion, here's some ideas that might make it workable:

- Divide up the races among each person interested.

- Each race would "own" the unique ship hulls they control (i.e. gravitonics, hypers, cloakers, etc) on Tim's default ship list. This would prevent the "Tholian Cloaker" problem.

- For the ships that are owned by several races (i.e. Death Specula, Lady Royale, Loki, Gemini), each race that owns the ship has a say in how to make modifications.

- For those ships owned by most or all the races (i.e. various freighters and alchemy ships), all persons have a say.

- Which, of course, implies we need a final "arbiter". I would suggest ][avok ... after all, we are playing in his sandbox.

Of course, the real challenge is deciding what general parameters each person would use to make changes to their races.

Having built several race/ship mods, I found it best to approach the problem by focusing by ship "function". By that I mean that most races have some variation of these ships:

- A cheap scout
- A light torp ship (destroyer / minelayer)
- A medium carrier
- 3-4 shared freighters (SDSF, MDSF, LDSF, STF)
- 1-2 Alchemy ships (Merlin, NRS)

The Torp races usually add these additional ship types:

- A medium torp ship (cruiser)
- A large torp ship (dreadnought / battleship)

The fighter races usually add these additional ship types:

- A light fighter transporter (lighter)
- A heavy carrier

What I do then is "identify" a ship to fit each function, then compare it to the same ship from the other races to see if it is imbalanced. For example, most scout ships have the same general characteristics: minor resource cost, 1 engine, 1-2 beams. (Most have no torps or bays, but for example it would make "race" sense that the Tholians would have one torp launcher).

One you hammer out the "basic" ship classes, you adjust the remaining hulls each race controls with an eye for each races "theme". Tholians are minelayers. Empire, Rebels, COM and Cylons are fighter races.

Your thots ...
Klauser

"Any ship can be a minesweeper ... once!"

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hennef
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Re: Smorgasbourd Fleets

Post#52 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:53 am

B A N E wrote:The concept while intriguing is rife with problems.
#1: Game balance.
#2: Logical costs.
Are two primaries.

Imbalance?
Simple: Put a larger fuel tank and cargo hold on the B200 for small cost.
If the B200 can carry say? 200 clans and HYP 3 times?
Borg everywhere.

Simple: Put a cloak on a Catspaw or an Emerald.

Cloaked Heavy Carrier

Gravitonics on a CV
HYP on a CV

HYP+Torp for Crystal or Bots (esp. Bots)

Logical cost of various special components based upon hull size?
Bigger the hull the higher the cost of the special component?
Do we limit weapon/bay count based upon tech level and hull size?
Do we adjust such specs based upon racial bias?

IMO, the original balance and racial concepts should be maintained with
an eye towards fixing the broken/useless ships.

A: Elimination/replacement of the SDSF and MDSF to end easy slot clog.
B: Adjust minimal necessary to broken ships like Red Wind.

While I could see setting up a game to play, I cannot see building
a shiplist this way.
to A: there are other possibilities to get cheap and easy slot-fillers for some races. so why eliminate those nice mdsfs. they are really usefull sometimes as well.

well. maybe a simple txt/xls- file would be sufficient to gather ideas. anyone posts his ideas of a perfect/better shiplist or just a few changes and we put them all together. somehow :D
have fun!

hennef

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Lots of material to digest in this post:

Post#53 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:40 am

So, I'm fiddling with the Bird's list and reaquainting myself with the botched classes that FASA did and Tim emulated.

IE:
Deth Specula Frigate?
It smokes everything in the bird fleet except the Res and DW
IMO the Deth should be a cruiser.

So, I'm thinking we need to put various limits on classes.
Naval vessel classifications generally ascending in size (suggestion):
Weights:
Scout (<50 kt)
Escort (50-70kt)
Frigate (70-80kt)
Destroyer (80-100kt)
Cruiser (100-200kt)
B.Cruiser (175-300kt)
Misc Carriers (60-300kt)
Battleship (450-999kt)
Super Carrier (500-999kt)

Weapon count:
We could modify the following parameters by race bias.
Torpers get +2 on Torps.
FTR races get +2 on Fbays.
Fascist get +2 on Beams (or +2 torps, but not both).

Scout: 2 beam weapons / no torps/fbay.
Escort: 4 beam weapons / no torps/fbay.
Frigate: 5 weapons (max 1 torp/1fbay)
Destroyer: 7 weapons (max 2 torps/fbay)
Cruiser: 10 weapons (max 3 torps/fbay)
B.Cruiser: 12 weapons (max 6 torps/fbay)
Misc. Carriers: (no more than 5 fbay)
Battleship: (max 10/10torp)
SuperCVs: (max 10/10fbay)

For the sim happy (like me)...
A high tech destroyer should be able to kill a low tech cruiser.
BUT, a high tech cruiser should slaughter a high tech destroyer.
Same concept on up the scale.

Misc. Carriers are a mixed bunch altogether.
Lots of different applications.
They should generally follow the various classifications above.

Crews, Cargo & Fuel should be adjusted by class.
Bigger ship, Bigger crew, cargo & fuel.
Exception would be the Scout which would have lots of fuel relative
to its' size.

Cost & Minerals also should reflect class.

Special hull devices should inflate hull cost in both minerals and price.

Did I miss anything?
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#54 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:52 am

Regarding the Borg:
They're both a torper & ftr race.
This race would require some care in building a good fleet without
the fleet being a nightmare.
In built weaknesses like the firecloud has with the chunnel is a good
thing.
In built problems like 1 jump, low cargo B200 is good.


Regarding the Crystals:
They should get the Ftr race bonus instead of the torper bonus.
Why? Their focus is webs and web based combat tactics.
I would not want the crystals able to fight like a fascist.
The FTR bonus gives them the ability to build a Crystal Thunder
but because they have to buy the fighters, they're less likely to
build a fleet of carrier type vessels. CV's cannot lay mines.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Rimstalker
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Post#55 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:00 am

so, bane, have you had a look at tlist?

http://www.geocities.com/the_vagabund/T ... 1-org.html - the changes from Tim's original list are marked in red.
Wirklich reich ist, wer mehr | Truly rich is, who holds
Träume in seiner Seele hat, | more dreams in his soul
als die Realität zerstören kann.| than reality can destroy.

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

If I can clean this up: Bird sample rework.

Post#56 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:16 am

BIRDS (original value)

Swift Heart Scout
Tech1 Eng1 Beams2 Fbay0 Torp0
Crew 126
Mass 45
Fuel 170
Cargo 20

White Falcon FF
Tech2 Eng2 Beams4 Fbay0 Torp1
Crew 150
Mass 80(120)
Fuel 430
Cargo 140

Bright Heart DD
Tech3 Eng2 Beams2 Fbay0 Torp4
Crew 122
Mass 100(80)
Fuel 135
Cargo 40

Fearless Wing CC
Tech 4 Eng2 Beams6 Fbay0 Torp1
Crew 300
Mass 150
Fuel 360
Cargo 240

Skyfire CC
Tech 5 Eng2 Beams4 Fbay0 Torp3(2)
Crew 270
Mass 172 (150)
Fuel 370
Cargo 410(250)

Deth Specula CC
Tech6 Eng2 Beam6 Fbay0 Torp4
Crew 240
Mass 113
Fuel 140
Cargo 35

Valiant Wind CV
Tech 6(5) Eng2 Beam7 Fbay4(3) Torp0
Crew 322
Mass 198(180)
Fuel 210(190)
Cargo 80

Red Wind CV
Tech 6(8) Eng2 Beams2 Fbay4(2) Torp0
Crew 80(40)
Mass 140(70)
Fuel 190(85)
Cargo 60

Resolute BCC
Tech 7 Eng2 Beams8 Fbay0 Torp3
Crew 348
Mass 180
Fuel 480
Cargo 280

Dark Wing BB
Tech10 Eng2 Beam10 Fbay0 Torp8
Crew 910
Mass 491
Fuel 290
Cargo 150
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#57 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:18 am

Rimstalker wrote:so, bane, have you had a look at tlist?

http://www.geocities.com/the_vagabund/T ... 1-org.html - the changes from Tim's original list are marked in red.
FTMP, Tlist is a fairly good work with some IMO glitches.
Lizards having a 9/2 cloaker is a bad idea.

And that's from a player that has adored the Green Machine from
the beginning. (Liz are my fav)
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Posts: 688

Post#58 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:22 am

Klauser wrote:You're right, BANE. Designing a ship list by committee is problematic at best!
I've spent enough time in meetings to know that doing just about anything by committee generally results in the worst of all possible outcomes. Like one of my managers once said of a meeting that I had complained was awful, "No, it was a really good meeting: Nothing bad happened."
Klauser wrote:I think all of us paricipating in this discussion agree that each race could stand some ship adjustments, specifically by reducing the number of "stupid" ship designs

After reading through this discussion, here's some ideas that might make it workable:

- Divide up the races among each person interested.

- Each race would "own" the unique ship hulls they control (i.e. gravitonics, hypers, cloakers, etc) on Tim's default ship list. This would prevent the "Tholian Cloaker" problem.

- For the ships that are owned by several races (i.e. Death Specula, Lady Royale, Loki, Gemini), each race that owns the ship has a say in how to make modifications.

- For those ships owned by most or all the races (i.e. various freighters and alchemy ships), all persons have a say.

- Which, of course, implies we need a final "arbiter". I would suggest ][avok ... after all, we are playing in his sandbox.
I would suggest me, as it was my idea. 8)

Actually, I would suggest you and me, since we both seem to see things the same way and I think you have a great grasp of what is needed.

...not to mention Havok is already busy enough, I think.
Klauser wrote:Of course, the real challenge is deciding what general parameters each person would use to make changes to their races.
I think that rather than assigning races to individuals, everyone sends their recommendations to the compiler for whatever race or races they are interested in. The person who is putting it together will look at the recommendations and see what will work and how things will balance against the other races' fleets/abilities and build the list.
Klauser wrote:Having built several race/ship mods, I found it best to approach the problem by focusing by ship "function". By that I mean that most races have some variation of these ships:

- A cheap scout
- A light torp ship (destroyer / minelayer)
- A medium carrier
- 3-4 shared freighters (SDSF, MDSF, LDSF, STF)
- 1-2 Alchemy ships (Merlin, NRS)

The Torp races usually add these additional ship types:

- A medium torp ship (cruiser)
- A large torp ship (dreadnought / battleship)

The fighter races usually add these additional ship types:

- A light fighter transporter (lighter)
- A heavy carrier

What I do then is "identify" a ship to fit each function, then compare it to the same ship from the other races to see if it is imbalanced. For example, most scout ships have the same general characteristics: minor resource cost, 1 engine, 1-2 beams. (Most have no torps or bays, but for example it would make "race" sense that the Tholians would have one torp launcher).


While it might make race sense for the Tholians to have a torp tube on their scout it would have to be done carefully, as it could result in a REALLY nasty, cheap ship that could hit you from half-way across the map.

I do agree with you on the method of designing the fleets though.
Klauser wrote:One you hammer out the "basic" ship classes, you adjust the remaining hulls each race controls with an eye for each races "theme". Tholians are minelayers. Empire, Rebels, COM and Cylons are fighter races.

Your thots ...
I'm going to make an Excel spread sheet (gradually) with all the ships in the game. Don't expect it to be done before I get moved up to OH, though.

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#59 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:37 am

<scratch scratch scratch>
Last edited by B A N E on Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Posts: 688

Re: Lots of material to digest in this post:

Post#60 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:49 am

B A N E wrote:So, I'm fiddling with the Bird's list and reaquainting myself with the botched classes that FASA did and Tim emulated.

IE:
Deth Specula Frigate?
It smokes everything in the bird fleet except the Res and DW
IMO the Deth should be a cruiser.

So, I'm thinking we need to put various limits on classes.
Naval vessel classifications generally ascending in size (suggestion):
Weights:
Scout (<50 kt)
Escort (50-70kt)
Frigate (70-80kt)
Destroyer (80-100kt)
Cruiser (100-200kt)
B.Cruiser (175-300kt)
Misc Carriers (60-300kt)
Battleship (450-999kt)
Super Carrier (500-999kt)

Weapon count:
We could modify the following parameters by race bias.
Torpers get +2 on Torps.
FTR races get +2 on Fbays.
Fascist get +2 on Beams (or +2 torps, but not both).
I think these ideas are, for the most part, great. But I would not suggest that these values should be written in stone. I think we need some variety between the races, otherwise we may as well make a standard ship list for all the races, if you see what I mean.

The Tholians tend to have small ships, so even their battleship is going to be a relatively small ship. Maybe they wouldn't even have a ship that the Federation would call a battleship.
B A N E wrote:Scout: 2 beam weapons / no torps/fbay.
Escort: 4 beam weapons / no torps/fbay.
Frigate: 5 weapons (max 1 torp/1fbay)
Destroyer: 7 weapons (max 2 torps/fbay)
Cruiser: 10 weapons (max 3 torps/fbay)
B.Cruiser: 12 weapons (max 6 torps/fbay)
Misc. Carriers: (no more than 5 fbay)
Battleship: (max 10/10torp)
SuperCVs: (max 10/10fbay)
This goes back to my thoughts on variety. It is good for guidelines, but not written in stone. Consider the wide variety of carriers the Cylons have available. Presently most of them aren't worth building for one reason or another, but they could be modified to make all of them worth building.
B A N E wrote:For the sim happy (like me)...
A high tech destroyer should be able to kill a low tech cruiser.
BUT, a high tech cruiser should slaughter a high tech destroyer.
Same concept on up the scale.

Misc. Carriers are a mixed bunch altogether.
Lots of different applications.
They should generally follow the various classifications above.

Crews, Cargo & Fuel should be adjusted by class.
Bigger ship, Bigger crew, cargo & fuel.
Exception would be the Scout which would have lots of fuel relative
to its' size.

Cost & Minerals also should reflect class.

Special hull devices should inflate hull cost in both minerals and price.

Did I miss anything?
See? Like I said, you have great ideas.

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