New ship list discussion

Post here if you are interested in the balancing of the Tim branded shiplist

Moderators: BitMask, Havok

User avatar
Shardin5
Posts: 3808

Post#61 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:52 am

I can't believe you did that Bane, posting that site here. Your in trouble now.
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The US Marines don't have that problem.
President Ronald Reagan

User avatar
B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#62 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:57 am

Enemy#1 wrote:I can't believe you did that Bane, posting that site here. Your in trouble now.


:shock:
uh oh... apparently, I don't know about a taboo.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

User avatar
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Posts: 688

Post#63 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:01 am

B A N E wrote:
Rimstalker wrote:so, bane, have you had a look at tlist?

http://www.geocities.com/the_vagabund/T ... 1-org.html - the changes from Tim's original list are marked in red.


FTMP, Tlist is a fairly good work with some IMO glitches.
Lizards having a 9/2 cloaker is a bad idea.

And that's from a player that has adored the Green Machine from
the beginning. (Liz are my fav)


I don't see anything terribly wrong with the Saurian, really, though I think I would reduce its fuel capacity a bit, maybe to around 200. It's only 120KTs and 120 cargo. Not exactly a huge, dangerous ship. I'd guess it would win against a Patriot, but not two.

Beams just don't have a huge effect on combat. They are also quite expensive at higher techs. Putting H. Phasers on that ship would be foolish in the extreme unless you could ensure it would never see combat.

User avatar
B A N E
Posts: 3777

Variety:

Post#64 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:05 am

Zap,

I agree, there should be some racial variety/biases further than
just the "ftr/torp" races.

Lizards don't put a lot of beams on their ships.
Fascists overbeam their ships.
Birds are lighter and undergunned than normal.
Privies are all small ships.
Crystals have huge cargoes on their mine layers.
EE builds heavier than normal.
Bots don't build torpers as combatants.
Rebs are a mix mostly fighter and IMO should be odd.
CofM are ftr but should be somewhat odd also.

If we don't put in some general and specific biases, we'll end up with
generally speaking 5 torper clone races, 4 ftr clone races, and the
crystals and the borg.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

User avatar
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Posts: 688

Post#65 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:06 am

Enemy#1 wrote:If you think a Cylon would be scary with a Cloaked ship what about a Tholian, NOW that should scare you. My Dream ship as the Tholian or as the Cylons would be a Falcon with a torp tube on it. NOW THAT would be a really cool ship.


Actually, this brings up a very good point. Ship trading/captures will have an effect, also.

I was in a game where the Tholians and the Orions were allied. I can tell you a Tholian MBR is a damned scary thing to see. :shock:

Fortunately for me, the Tholian player wasn't using the ship to its best advantage, and they attacked prematurely.

The point is, I think it would be wise to give a bit of thought to what happens when ships get traded, also. Though going too far down this path will also stifle variety between the races.

User avatar
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Posts: 688

Re: Variety:

Post#66 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:10 am

B A N E wrote:Zap,

I agree


OK, so we will need a way to transfer data between us, since we will be the final arbiters of this list. :wink:

User avatar
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Posts: 688

Post#67 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:49 am

Enemy#1 wrote:Why Chereks???? Viewpoint on the Tholians?? He isn't very good with them.


OK, yours, then. I don't keep track of exactly who plays what race. He's probably better with them than you, anyway. :wink:

Send me a list of what you think should be changed. Tell me what you think the weaknesses are and what the strengths are.

I'd also like to know what it is that limits the Tholians. I have my own ideas on what limits them, but I've never actually played the Tholians and I want to know about your experiences. What makes them hard to play?

Thanks.

User avatar
Klauser
Posts: 991

Re: Variety:

Post#68 » Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:45 am

B A N E wrote:I agree, there should be some racial variety/biases further than
just the "ftr/torp" races.

Lizards don't put a lot of beams on their ships.
Fascists overbeam their ships.
Birds are lighter and undergunned than normal.
Privies are all small ships.
Crystals have huge cargoes on their mine layers.
EE builds heavier than normal.
Bots don't build torpers as combatants.
Rebs are a mix mostly fighter and IMO should be odd.
CofM are ftr but should be somewhat odd also.

If we don't put in some general and specific biases, we'll end up with
generally speaking 5 torper clone races, 4 ftr clone races, and the
crystals and the borg.


I like your idea. And like you said, each of the races should have their own flavor or you wind up with "clone" races.

Zaphod, you mentioned Star Fleet Battles a couple of days ago. We ran straight into the "clone" race problem with Federation & Empire 10 years ago. Alot of this was because we were trying to use the ship stats from the TFG/ADB source materials as a rough guide. The problem we ran into was that much of the "flavor" of each race that BANE mentions is done through different types of weapons, which can't be adequately reflected using the VGAP missions. What we wound up with was that ships of similar class looked alot like from race-to-race. We tried to compensate by doing exactly what BANE outlined here - came up with race characteristics and applied them to each class. For example, Klingons tended to have more beams on their major combattants. I smoothed out much of the clone problems in SFB, but if you do compare classes across races, you can still see alot of similarities.

However ... you can swing too far in the race specific direction as well. A cheap one-engine Klingon frigate with 10 beams gets a little stupid ...
Klauser

"Any ship can be a minesweeper ... once!"

User avatar
hennef
Posts: 2250

Post#69 » Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:01 pm

Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
B A N E wrote:
Rimstalker wrote:so, bane, have you had a look at tlist?

http://www.geocities.com/the_vagabund/T ... 1-org.html - the changes from Tim's original list are marked in red.


FTMP, Tlist is a fairly good work with some IMO glitches.
Lizards having a 9/2 cloaker is a bad idea.

And that's from a player that has adored the Green Machine from
the beginning. (Liz are my fav)


I don't see anything terribly wrong with the Saurian, really, though I think I would reduce its fuel capacity a bit, maybe to around 200. It's only 120KTs and 120 cargo. Not exactly a huge, dangerous ship. I'd guess it would win against a Patriot, but not two.

Beams just don't have a huge effect on combat. They are also quite expensive at higher techs. Putting H. Phasers on that ship would be foolish in the extreme unless you could ensure it would never see combat.


the 9/2 saurian would not fight anyway, but it sweeps and sweeps and sweeps. and the greens get the minerals to equip HPs. they do! as Bane said: "bad idea", too evil. WAY EVIL!!!

if you strip it off its fueltank on the other hand, you remove the only reason to build the 4/2 saurian at all. it has a much better range than the rather short-legged lizard.
have fun!

hennef

Silvestr Potash
Posts: 59

Re: Lots of material to digest in this post:

Post#70 » Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:09 am

I resurrect this
B A N E wrote: Scout: 2 beam weapons / no torps/fbay.
Escort: 4 beam weapons / no torps/fbay.
Frigate: 5 weapons (max 1 torp/1fbay)
Destroyer: 7 weapons (max 2 torps/fbay)
Cruiser: 10 weapons (max 3 torps/fbay)
B.Cruiser: 12 weapons (max 6 torps/fbay)
Misc. Carriers: (no more than 5 fbay)
Battleship: (max 10/10torp)
SuperCVs: (max 10/10fbay)
...
For the sim happy (like me)...
A high tech destroyer should be able to kill a low tech cruiser.
BUT, a high tech cruiser should slaughter a high tech destroyer.
Same concept on up the scale.

Did I miss anything?
There are anomalies in the game, like patriot...

Is it true than the B.Cruiser always beat the Destroyer in TList or Tlist 1.1?
And anomalies is "one hand finger count"?
I must ask onto a different angle...
What can do a strongiest ship at any race:
Say gorbie: the strongiest ship. Effectively slain by combo: Iron lady +Rush. Iron lady is a different class ship. Iron lady can be slain effectively by SSFrigate -same class ship. What's a contermeasure?
SSF can be slain by patriot -a cheaper ship.
So, we have a cross-race table, with a unique ships against a special race.
Its a SSF and Iron Lady for EE-Rebels.
(assume no ES-bonus, no left-side correction)
So I ask players, what other "anti-special-race" ships they did use?

Return to “Project 1: Fixing Tim's List”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron