Size Does Matter Shiplist

This is the shiplist that is going to be proportionally accurate, and only able to be run on PHOST.

Moderators: BitMask, Havok

User avatar
Shardin5
Posts: 3808

Post#1 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:50 am

I don't think so Zap. Plus there are a few of us that haven't had time to post our ideas about this, yet. I have been going over several Ship lists and other addon's that would make sense, on a PER Race basis. One of my questions about the shiplist have been the Borg Bio and the Empires Gorbie. The Borg having a carrier doesn't make sense, flying a fighter is not a collective type of action and the Annie should be a real Fleet Killer, and harder to make, but needs more mass and more torps and Beams, to make it that fleet Killer it should be. The Empires, Gorbie is a small moon, and also a Fleet killer in its own right. Making these fearsome ships fit into the Balance of the game would be interesting to do. There have been lots of ADD-on's to help balance out the game, but each of them has draw backs, but some of the more race specific aspects that don't unbalance the game and make sense to the race should be included if possible. I will give you credit with coming up with one of the best ideas I have seen in my 3 years of playing now.
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The US Marines don't have that problem.
President Ronald Reagan

User avatar
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Posts: 688

Post#2 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:07 am

Enemy#1 wrote:I don't think so Zap. Plus there are a few of us that haven't had time to post our ideas about this, yet. I have been going over several Ship lists and other addon's that would make sense, on a PER Race basis. One of my questions about the shiplist have been the Borg Bio and the Empires Gorbie. The Borg having a carrier doesn't make sense, flying a fighter is not a collective type of action and the Annie should be a real Fleet Killer, and harder to make, but needs more mass and more torps and Beams, to make it that fleet Killer it should be. The Empires, Gorbie is a small moon, and also a Fleet killer in its own right. Making these fearsome ships fit into the Balance of the game would be interesting to do. There have been lots of ADD-on's to help balance out the game, but each of them has draw backs, but some of the more race specific aspects that don't unbalance the game and make sense to the race should be included if possible. I will give you credit with coming up with one of the best ideas I have seen in my 3 years of playing now.


I don't think so what?

I agree with you that the idea of the 'borg having a carrier for their heaviest line ship is not an ideal solution. I suspect that the reason it was done was because Supercarriers are really the most powerful ships in the game. The only way around that is to change the way torps work. Which might not be such a bad idea. Of course, now we're talking about a really major project.

I also agree that the Gorbie should be just about the most feared ship in the game, but it should be remarkably hard to build.

The only real solution I can see for this is a ship list built for PHost with The 'borg being the only race in the game with a 20 beam 20 tube ship, and the Gorbie being a 20 beam, 20 bay monster of 999KTs. This would make those ships TRUELY scary to see.

But I really want this to be a TimHost list. I'm am having trouble with this.

The only other thing I can think to do is to reduce the other races' beam/bay/tube count and mass. But that would put some serious limits on things like making a battleship somewhat difficult to build.

The 'borg and the Empire are a really nasty problem.

Did I mention that I REALLY, REALLY want your input on the Tholians?

User avatar
B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#3 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:10 am

To make a TimHost compatible shiplist that supes up the Gorbie,
Anni or the other mega carriers would require a massive downgrade
of all other vessels.

Then there is the problem of specific ship combos that defeat the
Anni.

Then there is the problem of if 95% of the ships are downgraded,
then planets and starbases become stronger by a bunch.
Minefields (esp.webs) become much more problematic.

I could see it being somewhat doable by say cutting 95% of the
ships weapon counts in half.

A Nova that was 5/5 instead of 10/10
A Nocturne that was 2/1 instead of 4/2

But, the various superships would have to be grossly expensive
else when they hit the battlefield, game over.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

User avatar
B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#4 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:13 am

IIRC, in v2 the above is basically how it was.
The fascist had twice as many beams as everyone else.
The bulk of the ships were pretty much junk.
That's partly how some of the screwball ships are currently in the game.
(ie 2/2 Redwind and the 4/2 Scorpius)

I wonder if a copy of v2 still lurks somewhere in my files.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

User avatar
Shardin5
Posts: 3808

Re: Variety:

Post#5 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:23 am

Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
B A N E wrote:Zap,

I agree


OK, so we will need a way to transfer data between us, since we will be the final arbiters of this list. :wink:

Zap, the above is what I was reffering to when I said I DON'T think so.
I was thinking more of a PLIST kind of setup, and make the Annie and Gorbie expensive and super powerful, but in a timhost list it would be harder, but maybe and just a thought as downgrading all other ships is NOT the way to do it, maybe the Mass, Fuel Tanks size could be increased, the both could be fitted with Fuel Scoops, and Engine Shield bonus always on. I will post my ideas about the Tholians shortly, sitting in meetings at the moment and only have short bursts of Forum access.
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The US Marines don't have that problem.
President Ronald Reagan

User avatar
Shardin5
Posts: 3808

Re: Variety:

Post#6 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:08 pm

B A N E wrote:Zap,

I agree, there should be some racial variety/biases further than
just the "ftr/torp" races.

Lizards don't put a lot of beams on their ships.
Fascists overbeam their ships.
Birds are lighter and undergunned than normal.
Privies are all small ships.
Crystals have huge cargoes on their mine layers.
EE builds heavier than normal.
Bots don't build torpers as combatants.
Rebs are a mix mostly fighter and IMO should be odd.
CofM are ftr but should be somewhat odd also.

If we don't put in some general and specific biases, we'll end up with
generally speaking 5 torper clone races, 4 ftr clone races, and the
crystals and the borg.

Lizards like the Tholians, should have ships with Bigger cargo hulls as well.
What about Lizard, and Klingons having more big ship Cloakers, like the Romulan have?
Some Races should have to be bound by the Khitomer accord and not allowed to Build Cloakers.
We may want to look at special race abilites like the Romulans having a Sneak attack feature when Laying in wait? Tholians knowing ships are in there webs, even if cloaked, because of the web drain on fuel. But no carziness like all tholian ships getting the fuel. Are we still looking at this as everybody is still new to the cluster or have the races been here for sometime? Leads to technology that would have been shared or STOLEN, that fits a Races way of doing things. You wouldn't have a Klingon Virgo or a Rebel Nova. But there are some real combo's that would happen, and I am almost done with my ideas and will post them later.
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The US Marines don't have that problem.
President Ronald Reagan

User avatar
Shardin5
Posts: 3808

Post#7 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:19 pm

Some people I think we should get more involved with this would be,
Sam"the Real Friendly Pirate" only person I know who can win with just about any race. Adama and Ed( maybe even Rbert) for the CofM and fighter Races in General, Both of them would be about Balance and keeping to the Core of the Races. Emp Stimpy, Rimstalker and TimRic, if nothing else as 3 that know how to abuse things. I think Cherek, Myself and maybe Havok could do the Tholian, and Cylons. I have some ideas for for my dear Klingons and Gorn Races, I still prefer those 2, and you can win with the Gorn, but the Klingon's are so tough to win in the long run games. Merlyn/Sam for the Pirates, both would be about balance. We could then funnel things up via posts to Zap and Bane. Zap if for nothing else for coming up with a great idea.
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The US Marines don't have that problem.
President Ronald Reagan

User avatar
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Posts: 688

Re: Variety:

Post#8 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:57 pm

Enemy#1 wrote:
Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
B A N E wrote:Zap,

I agree


OK, so we will need a way to transfer data between us, since we will be the final arbiters of this list. :wink:

Zap, the above is what I was reffering to when I said I DON'T think so.


I will tell you one thing you can be sure of: It is NOT going to be design by committee.

Enemy#1 wrote:I was thinking more of a PLIST kind of setup, and make the Annie and Gorbie expensive and super powerful, but in a timhost list it would be harder, but maybe and just a thought as downgrading all other ships is NOT the way to do it, maybe the Mass, Fuel Tanks size could be increased, the both could be fitted with Fuel Scoops, and Engine Shield bonus always on.


The only solution is to give The 'borg a supercarrier slightly less powerful than the Gorbie. RamScoops would be too much of an advantage of the wrong sort.
Engine shield bonus would be of little or no benefit to these ships, and, in fact, would be a detriment to them. ES Bonus benefits, primarilly, small ships.

Enemy#1 wrote:I will post my ideas about the Tholians shortly, sitting in meetings at the moment and only have short bursts of Forum access.


Think about what goes on in meetings, and think about the kind of ideas that come out of meetings.
I think Klauser would be the ideal third person for the final list decision. He seems to have a balanced view of things, and good ideas. Three people provides for a tie-breaker vote. Something that could become necessary, even though I know I will be neutral, and I have every confidence that B A N E will also. I also am certain that B A N E and I can have constructive discussions about these things and come to agreements.
I can already see, though, that I prefer a stronger ship list than B A N E does.

User avatar
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Posts: 688

Post#9 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:04 pm

Enemy#1 wrote:Some people I think we should get more involved with this would be,
Sam"the Real Friendly Pirate" only person I know who can win with just about any race. Adama and Ed( maybe even Rbert) for the CofM and fighter Races in General, Both of them would be about Balance and keeping to the Core of the Races. Emp Stimpy, Rimstalker and TimRic, if nothing else as 3 that know how to abuse things. I think Cherek, Myself and maybe Havok could do the Tholian, and Cylons. I have some ideas for for my dear Klingons and Gorn Races, I still prefer those 2, and you can win with the Gorn, but the Klingon's are so tough to win in the long run games. Merlyn/Sam for the Pirates, both would be about balance. We could then funnel things up via posts to Zap and Bane. Zap if for nothing else for coming up with a great idea.


Thanks so much for your vote of confidence in me. :roll:

So eMail them if you have their addresses.

Do you know anyone who plays the Klingons primarilly? This would be the person to get input from. Hennef is doing quite well with them in NF-V, but the fighting hasn't started yet, either...

As for the Gorn getting a cloaker with a large cargo capacity I think the LCC is quite worrisome enough with 290 Clans of lizards on it...

User avatar
Sysop
Site Admin
Posts: 1240
Contact:

Re: Smorgasbourd Fleets

Post#10 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:35 pm

B A N E wrote:IMO, the original balance and racial concepts should be maintained with an eye towards fixing the broken/useless ships.

A: Elimination/replacement of the SDSF and MDSF to end easy slot clog.
B: Adjust minimal necessary to broken ships like Red Wind.


BANE,

I think that's the heart of it right there.
Best Regards,

Joe

User avatar
Sysop
Site Admin
Posts: 1240
Contact:

Post#11 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:47 pm

Klauser wrote:You're right, BANE. Designing a ship list by committee is problematic at best!

I think all of us paricipating in this discussion agree that each race could stand some ship adjustments, specifically by reducing the number of "stupid" ship designs

After reading through this discussion, here's some ideas that might make it workable:

- Divide up the races among each person interested.

- Each race would "own" the unique ship hulls they control (i.e. gravitonics, hypers, cloakers, etc) on Tim's default ship list. This would prevent the "Tholian Cloaker" problem.

- For the ships that are owned by several races (i.e. Death Specula, Lady Royale, Loki, Gemini), each race that owns the ship has a say in how to make modifications.

- For those ships owned by most or all the races (i.e. various freighters and alchemy ships), all persons have a say.

- Which, of course, implies we need a final "arbiter". I would suggest ][avok ... after all, we are playing in his sandbox.

Of course, the real challenge is deciding what general parameters each person would use to make changes to their races.

Having built several race/ship mods, I found it best to approach the problem by focusing by ship "function". By that I mean that most races have some variation of these ships:

- A cheap scout
- A light torp ship (destroyer / minelayer)
- A medium carrier
- 3-4 shared freighters (SDSF, MDSF, LDSF, STF)
- 1-2 Alchemy ships (Merlin, NRS)

The Torp races usually add these additional ship types:

- A medium torp ship (cruiser)
- A large torp ship (dreadnought / battleship)

The fighter races usually add these additional ship types:

- A light fighter transporter (lighter)
- A heavy carrier

What I do then is "identify" a ship to fit each function, then compare it to the same ship from the other races to see if it is imbalanced. For example, most scout ships have the same general characteristics: minor resource cost, 1 engine, 1-2 beams. (Most have no torps or bays, but for example it would make "race" sense that the Tholians would have one torp launcher).

One you hammer out the "basic" ship classes, you adjust the remaining hulls each race controls with an eye for each races "theme". Tholians are minelayers. Empire, Rebels, COM and Cylons are fighter races.

Your thots ...


I don't know if having me preside over the whole thing is right idea, but I do appreciate any chance to help with the project. I think whatever you all come up with should be released like say TLIST and make it available to everyone who plays the game. Having a shiplist associated with the site would be pretty nice :)
Best Regards,

Joe

User avatar
Sysop
Site Admin
Posts: 1240
Contact:

Post#12 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:55 pm

B A N E wrote:
Enemy#1 wrote:I can't believe you did that Bane, posting that site here. Your in trouble now.


:shock:
uh oh... apparently, I don't know about a taboo.


There's no taboo...

And Shardy, it's "you're", not "your" :twisted:
Best Regards,

Joe

User avatar
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Posts: 688

Re: Smorgasbourd Fleets

Post#13 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:56 pm

Sysop wrote:
B A N E wrote:IMO, the original balance and racial concepts should be maintained with an eye towards fixing the broken/useless ships.

A: Elimination/replacement of the SDSF and MDSF to end easy slot clog.
B: Adjust minimal necessary to broken ships like Red Wind.


BANE,

I think that's the heart of it right there.


This is, in fact, the original idea. Not an entirely new ship list, but a list that fixes the problems with the existing ships. I'm not particularly interested in adding or changing the existing races or their special abilities. I want a list where all of the ships are useful, not just 50% of them.

Eliminating the problem of the SDSF being built only to drive up the ship count is a pretty big deal for me. Sure, I build SDSFs with W1s, too. I'd be stupid not to with the existing list.

I think I've said all of this before....

User avatar
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Posts: 688

Post#14 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:05 pm

Sysop wrote:I don't know if having me preside over the whole thing is right idea, but I do appreciate any chance to help with the project. I think whatever you all come up with should be released like say TLIST and make it available to everyone who plays the game. Having a shiplist associated with the site would be pretty nice :)


That was another thing I had in mind when I put forth the idea of a new shiplist. It would be the Circus Maximus shiplist.

As far as who will preside over the whole thing the primary requirement is a clear view of the goals and impartiality. As it was my idea, I think I've got a pretty clear view of the goals. I also think I am impartial enough, and knowlegable enough, to judge what is going to work. I do, however think that BANE and I would make a much better team than any one person alone. I like his ideas and I am pretty sure he is just as open to compromise as I am.

User avatar
Sysop
Site Admin
Posts: 1240
Contact:

Post#15 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:13 pm

Enemy#1 wrote:I don't think so Zap. Plus there are a few of us that haven't had time to post our ideas about this, yet. I have been going over several Ship lists and other addon's that would make sense, on a PER Race basis. One of my questions about the shiplist have been the Borg Bio and the Empires Gorbie. The Borg having a carrier doesn't make sense, flying a fighter is not a collective type of action and the Annie should be a real Fleet Killer, and harder to make, but needs more mass and more torps and Beams, to make it that fleet Killer it should be. The Empires, Gorbie is a small moon, and also a Fleet killer in its own right. Making these fearsome ships fit into the Balance of the game would be interesting to do. There have been lots of ADD-on's to help balance out the game, but each of them has draw backs, but some of the more race specific aspects that don't unbalance the game and make sense to the race should be included if possible. I will give you credit with coming up with one of the best ideas I have seen in my 3 years of playing now.


I'm going to have to agree with Shardin here. When did you ever see a Borg fighter in Trek? Answer: Never.

But when the engagement at Wolf 359 happened, 1 Borg cube came in and wiped out 40 Federation ships before the Klingon support even arrived. The Annihilation needs to be a big badass ship.

In the same thought... An Annihilation wouldn't be but a speck next to something like a Deathstar which should absolutely be the biggest, and slowest moving, ship in the game. It's really more of a battle platform or a mobile starbase IMOP, and I wouldn't put transwarps on that bugger either. It's just to big.

While we're talking size comparisons, I've got a great link for everyone to look at. Some of you might already have this. It's called Starship Dimensions.

http://www.merzo.net/

IMOP, take a look and think about some of these dimensions and how they can be used for setting up this new and more accurate shiplist, while trying to maintain the balance too.
Best Regards,

Joe

Return to “Project 2: The Accurate List”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron