Romulan Star Empire

Post here if you are interested in the balancing of the Tim branded shiplist

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Shardin5
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Romulan Star Empire

Post#1 » Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:50 pm

Post ideas about ships for the Romulan's. This should be used in helping Zap and Bane come up with a new shiplist. Post Ideas about exceptable race advantages too
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B A N E
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Post#2 » Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:36 pm

BIRDS
Problem Hulls:
Hull Name________TL__E__B__F__T_Crew_Mass_Fuel_Cargo_Cost_Tri_Dur_Mol
Skyfire CC________5__2__4__-__2__270__150__370___250__250__61__52__83
NSkyfire CC_______5__2__4__-__3__270__150__370___410__250__61__52__83

It doesn't cloak but it hauls a significant amount with fair armament.
Useful as a resupply ship.

Valiant Wind CV___6__2__7__3__-__322__180__190____80__380__61__52_123
NValiant Wind CV__6__2__7__4__-__322__180__190____80__380__61__52_123

Now the Valiant can fight.

Red Wind CV_______8__2__2__2__-___40___70___85____60__150__37__22__15
NRed Wind CV______8__2__2__4__-__120__140__190____60__150__37__22__15

This can now fight.
It's not great, but makes for an interesting surprise option.
Also might be useful combined with Darkwings.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

Mountjim
Posts: 14

Post#3 » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:57 pm

I have been following the shiplist discussion with interest and since I always play the Romulan I am probably as qualified as anyone to discuss the shortcomings of their fleet. Bane makes the point in one thread that the Romulans are underpowered. Thats true. But its not the role of the Romulan to be the brute of the universe, but rather to win via stealth and guile. Kind of like how they hunt baby seals....you sneak up behind them and club them in the back of the head. Still it would be nice if more of their race specific ships were useable and in this light I'll discuss each race specific ship, if I build it, how I use it, and if its not built how it might be made useful. My 2 cents....
The SWIFT HEART: Used for scouting and money transfer. No change needed.
WHITE FALCON CLASS CRUISER: Useless, too expensive. The TLIST correction of making it a 1 engine ship actually makes it functional as a minelayer and resupply ship for the larger warbirds.
BRIGHT HEART CLASS DESTROYER: Useless too expensive. The TLIst change to 1 engine certainly helps and with its 4 tubes might be useful as a commerce raider. But its light mass, minimal range and low crew make this problematic. Perhaps if the fuel load were increased it might be more viable.
SMALL TRANSPORT: Useless no reasonable fix.
FEARLESS WING CRUISER: In the original list I build these if i cant afford a Resolute, and then use them for laying mines. But changing the White Falcon crusier to a 1 engine ship takes that role away from it. Perhaps changing the weapon load from 6 beams and 1 torp to 4 beams and 3 torps would make it a viable weapons platform against some opposing small and medium warships, winning some battles losing others.
SKYFIRE CLASS CRUISER shared with Orion. Useless doesnt cloak. STEALTH! STEALTH! STEALTH! The Tlist correction ups weapons load from 4 beams and 2 torps to 4 beams and 4 torps and increases mass from 150 to 300! This would make it the 2nd toughest ship in the Romulan fleet. Under certain circumstances might have to build it though I don't like building noncloaking ships.
THE DETH SPECULA shared with the Fascist who has the worst fleet in the game. Something to strengthen the fascist is probably justified: Don't build it but would like to use it. In the original shiplist its too costly for its mass, range, cargo, fuel. the Tlist correction does a good job of fixing this by increasing the mass from 113 to 153, cargo from 35 to 80, fuel from 140 to 180 and interestingly changing weapons load from 6 beams and 4 torps to 4 beams and 6 torps. The question here is should it have more punch than the resolute battle cruiser? Maybe the TList change should be made BUT the weapons load remain 6 beams 4 torps so that additional torps could be added to the large resolute.
THE RESOLUTE BATTLECRUSIER - WORKHORSE OF THE FLEET: Problem is its too lightly armed to be the 2nd largest warship. Example, there are 5 ships in the federation fleet that armed with the same tech weapons would defeat the resolute and therefore require a Darkwing to kill, of which 2 of these would still beat the darkwing. Perhaps upping the weapons load on the resolute rather than the deth Specula would make some sense. Going from 8 beams and 3 torps to either 7 beams 5 torps or 6 beams 6 torps would be viable.
THE DARKWING: only real warship in the Romulan fleet and it still takes 2 to 3 darkwings to kill a major carrier. Probably no change needed here. Again the Romulan is all about guile so the top end shouldnt change. Tlist suggest upping the fuel from 290 to 390 and while this is a benefit id probably leave it alone forcing refueling.
As for the Valiant and Red Wind carriers, they are almost never used since their bays are so small. Incresing the number of bays slightly might make them useable, but the torp will remain the weapon of Romualn choice.
Of course I am no doubt bias. Therefore a lot of sims would need to be
run to ensure game balance is either maintained or improved. But as the Romulan it would be nice to have more ships to use other than just the Swift, Resolute, Darkwing and on occasion Fearless.

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Zaphod Beeblebrox
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Post#4 » Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:32 pm

Mountjim wrote:I have been following the shiplist discussion with interest and since I always play the Romulan I am probably as qualified as anyone to discuss the shortcomings of their fleet. Bane makes the point in one thread that the Romulans are underpowered. Thats true. But its not the role of the Romulan to be the brute of the universe, but rather to win via stealth and guile. Kind of like how they hunt baby seals....you sneak up behind them and club them in the back of the head. Still it would be nice if more of their race specific ships were useable and in this light I'll discuss each race specific ship, if I build it, how I use it, and if its not built how it might be made useful. My 2 cents....
The...
...
But as the Romulan it would be nice to have more ships to use other than just the Swift, Resolute, Darkwing and on occasion Fearless.
FANTASTIC POST!!!

This is EXACTLY what I was looking for from players who play a specific race a lot!

THANK YOU MOUNTJIM! \:D/ =D> \:D/ =D>

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Rimstalker
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Post#5 » Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:02 pm

Sorry to say that, but the post is partly wrong.

For instance, a Darkwing will ALWAYS win versus a Missouri, so there is only the Nova killing a Darkwing.

Also, the Death Specula has its uses as interceptor for special ships (fireclouds, lokis, cobols, etc.), which could be improved by lowering the techlevel and making the hull a bit cheaper in mcs.

The Bright Heart is perfect as it is: Build two of them for 4 pbps, one with transwarp, the other with stardrive1, both with mark8. Recycle at a starbase and all you need to do is raise hulltech to 10 and you can build a Darkwing with mark8 tubes and transwarp. Costs you 2 pbps and you save 9000 mcs.

@mountjim, do you use the intercept attack for all its worth? When employed correctly, you can destroy virgos and rushes for one darkwing each, even when they are travelling in fleets AND when you don't have spare ships as towers.
Wirklich reich ist, wer mehr | Truly rich is, who holds
Träume in seiner Seele hat, | more dreams in his soul
als die Realität zerstören kann.| than reality can destroy.

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Zaphod Beeblebrox
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Post#6 » Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:29 pm

Rimstalker wrote:Sorry to say that, but the post is partly wrong.

For instance, a Darkwing will ALWAYS win versus a Missouri, so there is only the Nova killing a Darkwing.

Also, the Death Specula has its uses as interceptor for special ships (fireclouds, lokis, cobols, etc.), which could be improved by lowering the techlevel and making the hull a bit cheaper in mcs.

The Bright Heart is perfect as it is: Build two of them for 4 pbps, one with transwarp, the other with stardrive1, both with mark8. Recycle at a starbase and all you need to do is raise hulltech to 10 and you can build a Darkwing with mark8 tubes and transwarp. Costs you 2 pbps and you save 9000 mcs.
That becomes less economical when the W1 costs you 50 MCr, 15T, and 5D. This is part of the solution to slot filler ships.
Rimstalker wrote:@mountjim, do you use the intercept attack for all its worth? When employed correctly, you can destroy virgos and rushes for one darkwing each, even when they are travelling in fleets AND when you don't have spare ships as towers.
And, in fact, an excellent response. You are posting EXACTLY what I wanted to see here. Discussions of what is good and bad about each race's list.

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B A N E
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Post#7 » Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:47 pm

Rimstalker,

I believe you see why those are the only three ships I'd change in the
bird fleet.

8)
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Rimstalker
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Post#8 » Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:23 am

Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
That becomes less economical when the W1 costs you 50 MCr, 15T, and 5D. This is part of the solution to slot filler ships.
Why? You are getting the ship parts back, so you save 8950 mcs. Oh, and of course you lose the 100-odd mcs for the Hulls.

What could be done to one of the useless ships: Turn it into a cloaking freighter. Big fueltank, 700 cargo and I am pretty sure it would be worth building.

@Bane: What would you change with the Darkwing? It could use both a bit larger cargo space and more fuel, but that only makes things a bit more convenient.

And of course the biggest improvement to the bright heart would be decreasing its mass down to 49 (or 50?).
Wirklich reich ist, wer mehr | Truly rich is, who holds
Träume in seiner Seele hat, | more dreams in his soul
als die Realität zerstören kann.| than reality can destroy.

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the.Ant
Posts: 283

Post#9 » Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:59 am

I have neither spend hours analyzing the shiplist nor am I an expert player, so this is just my personal opinion:

What I personally find really annoying about the Romulans is that they don't have ANY economic bonus. I mean 'bum' is a good joke.

Sure, the ships are cheap and they can be effective with cloak intercept,
but that's basically it. Cloak intercept.
You still need twice as many darkwings as the ships you want to take out. Which involves high logistics, because that also means you have to move twice as many ships to the same point, thereby you loose a great deal of flexibility.

Besides the low cost (and tricks like saving money through recycling), this still means that you have to build twice as many ships as the enemy if not more. Besides the cost-factor, this is also really timeconsuming. My point is, that yes the bird CAN be very powerfull, but they can also quite easily get "stuck". For example I played the birds in one game where I just didn't find usable native planets, those who had natives on them were all desert. By the time I got my economy going, the shiplimit was almost hit. Most other races (all?) have one way or the other to cope with such situations, but the birds really have a problem. All they can do is to expand heavily, which involves LDSF, which spoils the cloakingfactor.

Besides all shipdesign adjustments, I think the Bird really need some economic assistance, and if it's only a terraformer to make native planets more usable. Another possibility would be a cloaked LDSF but that might become a too valuable trading object, for example to the lizard.

However, I find it ridiculous that some people here are so eager to reduce the "disadvantages" of races like the colonials or robots (yes, they have useless ships, so what) while I rarely encounter games where those races face serious problems... on the other hand Birds or Fascists are seldom seen among the first places.


cheers,

the.ant

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Rimstalker
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Post#10 » Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:15 am

The problems you mention are problems of mastering the universe, not of the birds. Compared to a well-equipped carrier, Darkwings are dirt-cheap mineralwise.

And even when playing with very rare universes, there is still the problem of alchemy ships. IMHO, the merlin is broken. The approach in the Pengerlist with it having only 90 cargo (at the same cost as in the original list) is a bit drastic, but I think 300 cargo is about the right size.
Wirklich reich ist, wer mehr | Truly rich is, who holds
Träume in seiner Seele hat, | more dreams in his soul
als die Realität zerstören kann.| than reality can destroy.

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the.Ant
Posts: 283

Post#11 » Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:35 am

I am not complaining because of my inferior skill in mastering the universe, I am aware of that, I am also aware that sometimes (and some people) are the birds are quite successful. But that is not the point.

Maybe you are right that it is the problem of too easy availability of the heavy ships, but still as it is now, it is out of balance, with a disadvantage for the birds. Besides, too many games are rich on minerals.

still, thinking about economic bonus:
Feds: tax bonus, terraform
Lizards: Hiss, terraform
Bird: none, but cheap darkwings
Fascist: Pillage
Privateer: LRC, tow-capture, graviton drive
Borg: Assimilate
Crystal: capture, less problem with temperature, terraform
Robot: none but free fighters and cheap mines
Rebel: Falcon for fast money transfer, arctic colonies, rga, free fighters
Colonial: LRC, free fuel, free fighters

Maybe i missed something, don't know. But I would not say that the cheap ships make up for the advantages of the other races. Sure, can be helpful in specific scenarios (low minerals, lucky cluster constellation) but in general they DO have an economic disadvantage.


Still like playing them though :)

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Rimstalker
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Post#12 » Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:01 am

mastering the universe = running master exe.

Most games are rich. Birdman would fare a lot better with rare.
Wirklich reich ist, wer mehr | Truly rich is, who holds
Träume in seiner Seele hat, | more dreams in his soul
als die Realität zerstören kann.| than reality can destroy.

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the.Ant
Posts: 283

Post#13 » Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:09 am

Rimstalker wrote:mastering the universe = running master exe.

Most games are rich. Birdman would fare a lot better with rare.
OH, ok :)

Totally agree with that, however I think that all races should have advantages and disadvantages nevertheless what type of scenario you are playing.

Cheers,

the.Ant

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#14 » Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:29 am

Rimstalker,
I am not sure I would do anything to change the Darkwing.
As exampled, done right, CI, the DW trades 1:1 with most
heavies.

It's dirt cheap, It has medium cargo and medium fuel.
Beyond fuel & cargo, I wouldn't change it.

As a Bird, I'd love to have more fuel and cargo added to the DW.
Defending against the Bird, I'd hate it.

TheAnt,
From what I've been gleaning in returning, there are too many rich
games. This tells me that folks need to learn more about building
their economies.

If the universe is rich, the small ships get bypassed because too many
folks see various ships as useless. Well, of course they're far less
effective/useless if everyone beelines to the various BBs and CVs.

The solution to undesirable ships is not to make everything capable
of beating a standard 4/4 Nebula. The solution is to make the ships
slightly better, give them designed roles (that are worth it) and cut
the minerals in the universe.

Cloaking LDSF... birds would love it, the rest of the universe would
have a cow. Concept wise, I think it fits the bird as I think the entire
bird fleet should cloak. BUT that IIRC is not doable without taking
the cloaking shipslots from the other races. It really is too bad that
cloaking isn't a Bird racial ability up to a maximum hull weight.
This would allow certain cloaked vessels but disallow cloaking gorbies.
(there's an old bug I had forgotten) :shock:

Rimstalker,
I'm not so sure fixing the merlin is a solution either...but I will ponder
that one. It is change that hadn't occurred to me. If the minerals are
dropped, the merlin (generally a noncombatant) becomes far more
important. In a rich universe, a good logicistic player doesn't need
many/any.

I've heard that Rich universe and $15k starts are common.
This just boggles my mind. $5k is a better start and there are
lots IMO of minerals in a rare mineral universe.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Rimstalker
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Post#15 » Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:05 am

there is one addon out there (abhost or unity i think) that enables birds do cloak their freighters.

One of my major problems with smaller vessels is that they are so vulnerable to minehits. Maybe mines could be triggered more often, the bigger the hullmass is?

ps: looking for the addon right now

its abhost:

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Ar ... abhost.txt

Birdmen Cloaking Shield
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The birdmen have a temporary cloaking shield attached to all freighters.
To use the shield you have to set your FC to "CLK" and the freighter will
enter cloak but it will also receive 10% damage. The definition of a
freighter is a ship, which
o has no beams and torp launchers present AND
o has no beams and torp launcher slots in the basic hull.
[This was to prevent cloaking "no beam"-Fireclouds, SSD´s e.t.c.!]
No other mission can be used at the same time. When you are in cloak you
can change your FC but not your mission or you will drop out of cloak.

Edit: Bane, I got a bit mislead by your three ships - after I had named three ships. I would love to see the death specula reduced in cost to make it really worth building, after I did some simming that showed that the resolute, which costs more or less the same in minerals, fights better than the death specula.
Wirklich reich ist, wer mehr | Truly rich is, who holds
Träume in seiner Seele hat, | more dreams in his soul
als die Realität zerstören kann.| than reality can destroy.

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