Twin Helix

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Hawkeye
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Twin Helix

Post#1 » Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:53 pm

Just wondering if it would be an idea to run a game where each player takes 2 races, both starting in the same area of space on a map that is roughly shaped like a 5 pointed star, or alternatively a wagon wheel with 5 spokes. Limited of course to 5 players, no player alliances allowed, and the race combinations are predetermined so as to eliminate any nasty combinations like Pirates and Lizards.

One option for race combos could be:

Crystals and Borg
Lizards and Feds
Rebels and Birdmen
Colonies and Empire
Fasists and Robots

No doubt someone out there will have a better combo list... :wink:

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Havok
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Post#2 » Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:18 pm

BANE I know you have a list.
Regards,
][avok

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Raven2
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Post#3 » Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:01 am

I'd be interested in such a game, but I think I'd pair each carrier race with a torp race or cloaker. Something like:

Colonies/Facist
Rebel/Lizard
Robot/Fed
Empire/Crystal
Borg/Bird
>>> Raven <<<

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B A N E
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Post#4 » Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:40 am

IMO, in team splits, chunnel often needs turning off unless the Borg
is specifically setup with another weakness to compensate.

Some of the splits:

Three Cloakers:
Liz, Bird, Fasc.

Three True fighter races:
Bot, Reb, CofM

Biggest 2:
Borg & EE.

Econ races:
Fed, Liz, Borg.

Intel races:
Bird & EE.

Lots of interesting ways to split them up and depending upon how
you set up the teams, the powers wax & wane.

An old set (pre v3.2x host):
(Fed+CofM) vs
(Bird+Rebel) vs
(Crystal+EE) vs
(Liz+Borg) vs
(Fasc+Bot) vs
(Fed+CofM)

An interesting split is to focus strengths...
Fed + CofM
Liz + Borg
Bird + Empire
Fasc + Rebel
Crystal + Bot

Or you could just let the players lotto them.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Hawkeye
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Post#5 » Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:40 pm

B A N E wrote: (Fed+CofM) vs
(Bird+Rebel) vs
(Crystal+EE) vs
(Liz+Borg) vs
(Fasc+Bot) vs
(Fed+CofM)

An interesting split is to focus strengths...
Fed + CofM
Liz + Borg
Bird + Empire
Fasc + Rebel
Crystal + Bot

Or you could just let the players lotto them.

Wow both of these groupings are really good. I'm feeling like a fat kid in a candy store with all the choices...!

I guess with the second set above, it's just a case of where you would want your key strength to lie :-

Fed + CoM = Good all-rounders
Liz + Borg = Best for ground defense
Bird + Empire = Intel gathering
Fasc + Reb = Team Pillage / RGA
Crys + Bot = Minefields

If it came down to each player choosing which races they want (ie not a preset list), I'd suggest setting it up so that the first person to pick their first race, becomes the last person to pick their second race. A bit like

1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1

So for example player 4 would be 4th to pick his first race, but only seventh to pick his second race after player 5 had picked both his races. You could lotto it to decide who is player 1 to 5, in that way no-one gets disadvantaged by being the last to pick their race.

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Gilgamesh
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Post#6 » Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:23 am

Personally, as the Klingon I'd rather be teamed up with the Robots than the Rebels. I don't think I'd get as much from the "focus" thing as I would from cloaking Robot minelayers! And the extra firepower would be welcome.
QI'DaS tuQ SoSlI'

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Six_Of_One
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Post#7 » Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:54 am

Fed + CoM = Good all-rounders
Liz + Borg = Best for ground defense
Bird + Empire = Intel gathering
Fasc + Reb = Team Pillage / RGA
Crys + Bot = Minefields


Fed/Com are good allrounders, and a virgo with 11 fighter bays is a handfull

LIz/Borg simply have the best economy. Liz mining rate plus hisss and the Borg assimilation. BUT who wants to go up against a fleet of Liz biocides :shock:

Bird/Empire.. great intel but weak economy and easy prey for most others.

Fasc/Reb are the weakest link in a standard ship list game. Hypin to pillage -rga and most ships sitting there will capture or kill.. easy to stop.
While the Rush fights well above its class, the fed virgo or liz bio would eat it for breakfast.

Cryst-Bots... great defense if you're agraphobic.


IMHO it would be better

Fed-Col
Bird-Borg
Liz-Empire
Fasc-Bots
Crystal-Rebel

Just think that is more balanced.
"Just because you can do a thing,
Doesn't mean you should."

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Cherek
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Post#8 » Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:22 am

Two Rushes can take on a Lizard Bio. In th Hemisphere game, the Northerns started letting the Rebel player using two Rushes to attack the Lizard Bio's. Since the Bio is worth a lot more in PBP than the Rush the Lizard/Borg soon started to run out of Bios and the Rebel was increasing his number of Rushes and add to the fact that the Rebel was RGAing in the the Borg space, it wasn't long before the Borg would have been eliminated if the game would have continued.
The line below is true.
The line above is false.

Cherek

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B A N E
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Post#9 » Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:53 am

In the "strengths" list, I was not shooting for balanced.
It was a concept to show options.

Kind of like this list:

Fed/Lizard (Econs)

Fasc/Bird (Cloaks)

Borg/EE (Biggest)

Crystal/Bots (mine central)

Reb/CofM (mobile)
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#10 » Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:07 am

An interesting 5 teams of 2 game a long while back in a 3.2x host:
(IIRC)

Fed/Borg vs
Liz/Empire vs
Bird/CofM vs
Crystal/Rebel vs
Fasc/Bots vs
Fed/Borg

Invasion points game.
Map was default map, wrapped.

Liz/Empire won the game due to putting everything they had
into capturing and holding the homeworlds needed.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#11 » Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:53 am

First things to decide when attempting to work on balance is the game format.

#1: Victory Condition(s) / Game ending.
a: Invasion points
b: Homeworld/Flagship
c: Highest Score on Turn ##.
d+: ???

After determining the victory condition then the map:
(or map could be #1)

Is map a special shape, is it wrapped?
(in this case, OP suggested a couple special types)

Then determine master details and hconfig details.
Master and Hconfig greatly affect racial strengths.

Is Chunnel going to be left on or off?
If off, then the Borg while strong don't have the ultimate mobility and
their team has to move like everyone else.
IMO, there is no easy way to balance chunnel in a team game.
The logistical advantage is just huge.

BUT if it is on, then the borg team should be gimped elsewhere.
Just think about the following pairings:

Fed/Borg with chunnel? Yikes
10/13 Biocide that fights all weapons AND recharges 25 shields between
battles. A fully loaded Fed Bio can go through a LOT of enemy hulls.

Cloaker/Borg with chunnel? Yikes
The FCC can almost always get there with a cloaker.

Crystal/Borg with chunnel? Yikes
A crystal tows an empty FCC, web surrounded,
CUBES HAVE ARRIVED!

EE/Borg we see you and we assimilate you.
Slower start, frightening finish.

Bot/Borg we smother you in big mines, we get free fighters
Biocides filled on the cheap.

Rebel/Borg cheap fill biocides... Rebel owned Bios are nasty.
Bios on leftside always. Use PBPs in battle to build Rushes.

Cofm/Borg, except for Webs, those Cubes aren't stopping.

Borg+Chunnel in team game, yikes.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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rockford
Posts: 96

Re: Twin Helix

Post#12 » Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:56 am

Hawkeye wrote:Just wondering if it would be an idea to run a game where each player takes 2 races, both starting in the same area of space on a map that is roughly shaped like a 5 pointed star, or alternatively a wagon wheel with 5 spokes. Limited of course to 5 players, no player alliances allowed, and the race combinations are predetermined so as to eliminate any nasty combinations like Pirates and Lizards.

One option for race combos could be:

Crystals and Borg
Lizards and Feds
Rebels and Birdmen
Colonies and Empire
Fasists and Robots

No doubt someone out there will have a better combo list... :wink:
Perfect for a Christmas Blitz. :D
Retirement: There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want.

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Gilgamesh
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Post#13 » Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:41 pm

I don't know that I'd go for a Christmas blitz, but maybe a New Years blitz?
QI'DaS tuQ SoSlI'

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B A N E
Posts: 3777

Post#14 » Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:39 pm

Been pondering the OP for a bit...regarding a 5 point star or
5 spoke wagon wheel.

In the case of the star, significant combat is going to be much
later in the game as the players will have gulfs between their
main areas with a common area with all players. This would
lend to slower and more thorough build ups with almost no
potential for quick kills. The central hub will be a free for all.

In either map the following makes a pretty good split:
Fed / CofM
Liz / Rebel
Bird / Robot
Fasc / Borg
Crystal / Empire

As for order around the star/wheel, I don't think it matters too much.

On a Wagon Wheel, there will be some contact early but again,
if it is a 2000x2000 map, significant combat is going to be later
than normal and all kinds of variations including lotto is useful.
The center will be a free for all and the outside ring will be very
specific combat; team X vs team Y.

To be honest, in either map, chunnel could be left on without it
wrecking the balance.
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Your side,
their side,
and the truth.

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Tei
Posts: 602

Post#15 » Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:50 pm

I've always wanted to play a game controling 2 races.

We shouldn't limit ourselves to just the same set of races and rules. Using the switch race feature of phost, one can have any combination of races in the game you would want. Each team could have a Borg if that is what is wanted.

One thing that could be done with switch race is to allow races to pick their own combinations. This would create a maybe unbalanced game but it would be fun trying a combination of your favorite races that while not the strongest, would have interesting strategies.

We can pick races a couple of different ways:

1. We could all just submit the races that we want and see what happens.
2. We could pick one race that is know to everyone and pick the second in secret and it would be a surprise with even the race name disguised.
3. We could pick in order but limit race choises to no more than two of the same race.
1234554321

Something else could be done to compensate the teams that don't have Borg and chunnel. We could slightly change the ship list giving those chunnel free teams a Gravatonic drive ship or just give them this as a starting ship. I'm not sure if the Borg would be much fun to play with out chunnel. Wouldn't they be more like the EE then? The firecloud is otherwise a nearly useless ship.

:idea: step it up a notch: use the PLIST lite ship list!

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